Welcome And Psalm 146:6

Chris Grainger 0:50

Welcome to The Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders, God intends you to be. I'm your host, Chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, guys, this is your meat episode. Let's get right into it. Okay. So the scripture of the week this week is Psalm 24 146, verse 6, okay. 146, 6. He is the maker of the heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them. He remains faithful forever. So, guys, I took some time and unpacked that verse at length in our spiritual kickoff episode this week. So if you want to go back and listen to that, it's all about simplifying and applying God's word to your life. So be your last one in your podcast feed. And remember, fellas, we do this Monday through Friday at The Line Within Us. We call it the daily SKO. So daily spiritual kickoff. If you go to thelinewithin.us, you can join for free. Okay. So it's an easy way to get connected with us. That gives you a daily spiritual kickoff, which is a live feed video. If you don't see the video live, don't worry about it. We put the video out there for you each and every day. We also have access to our prayer request space where we have a monthly, not a monthly, a weekly prayer call. We do it every Monday. Um and let us know how we can be praying for you. And if you're in the continental U.S., we'd love to send you a free gift. So you sign up for the daily SKO, it doesn't cost you anything. And we just give, give, give. So, guys, the LionWithin.us, how you get started with that. Okay. So this is a big episode. Uh first time ever on the Lion Within is that we have done a recording with an astronaut. Okay. So super thankful for Rob Williams, by the way, for connecting us. But for this one, we have Colonel Jeffrey Williams. And he is uh he grew up in the rural township of Winter, Wisconsin. He went to the United States Military Academy at West Point. He did that in 1980. He served more than 27 active years in military duty. And uh in 1996, he became an astronaut. So he he logged a record-setting 534 days in space on four separate flights. So he's launched on the space shuttle, uh, the you know, the space shuttle itself, as well as the Russian show, it's and and just phenomenal career. Uh and and but his face journey is absolutely incredible. He put a book out there called Fellas The Work of His Hands. We're going to talk about that in a little bit, how that came to be. Uh, he has a biography that was written by another gentleman as well. Uh, this just absolutely phenomenal conversation. He is uh got John MacArthur wrote the Ford for the Ford. I'm talking about just you talk about just an incredible life, and he's doing so much good out there in the world. And he's got this brand new project called the P and Wise Science and Wonder Center. So we talk about that at the end of the conversation. So this is just a fun, just a fun one. Lots of really good nuggets here. Uh you know, so many people out there these days are talking about the space, you know, programming in everything with Artemis and all that. So we do touch on that as well. But it's just a fun conversation. You're gonna learn a lot. Hopefully, you'll be encouraged, inspired. So sit back and enjoy this one with Colonel Jeffrey Williams. Well, Colonel Jeff, welcome to the Lion Within Us. How are you doing today?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 3:53

Thank you, Chris. Doing great. Great to talk to you this morning.

Chris Grainger 3:57

Yeah, and I'm super thankful for Rob for connecting us as well. I know that was our comma connection point. So he's been on our podcast as well as a member spotlight, and he can he was able to graciously put us together.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 4:09

Yes, yes. Yeah, Rob's a great guy. He's I've gotten to know him over the last couple of years here.

Chris Grainger 4:13

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, we we love to start the show kind of like uh Colonel Jeff, and it's we talk about something fun about you. Lots of people know a lot about you. You you're well known. What's something fun about you that maybe not many people know about?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 4:29

Something fun about me. Boy, I don't know. Well, I like to say I started out uh growing up on a dairy farm in northern Wisconsin, you know. So, and I do that, especially with young people, to show that uh your horizon can be,

From Dairy Farm To Space

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 4:43

you know, relatively limited, and but you never know what the Lord has in store for you in life. So from milking cows to International Space Station.

Chris Grainger 4:54

It's a pretty fun journey, right? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. We love to hear about your your faith journey as well. Uh, how did you come to know Christ and what did that look like for you as a young man?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 5:06

Yeah, my wife and I actually came to Christ when we were about 30 years old. We had been married seven years. I was well on my way in a military career, uh, and and from all intents and purposes, the career was going well, uh, life was going well, but we uh our marriage relationship had eroded like many do outside of faith. And we got into a crisis uh circumstance in our marriage. Um and uh it was coincident with a move, and of course, being in the military, we're moving regularly, and we had been in Monterey, California. I was going to graduate school for two years, and then uh the Army was reassigning us to Houston for the first time. So I moved the family to Houston in the middle of a kind of a crisis point. We where there

Marriage Crisis And Conversion Story

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 5:52

was our marriage was on a thread, um, and then moved the family into a house we had a contract on, and then I got assigned to flight refresher training in Alabama. So we were separated geographically as well. And the uh the phone calls in the evening, this was in the 80s, so no cell phones and all that. Uh the phone calls were uh were miserable until about two weeks after we had that new arrangement. Uh there was something different on my wife's voice, and I asked, Well, you sound different, what's going on? And she said, I've been born again. I said, Well, what does that mean? And she tried to explain it to me. I uh thought, oh no. Uh, you know, I I grew up in the Cold War. I'd studied the Soviet Union, I knew what propaganda was, and uh um she had sent me some tracks uh also, and I thought the tracks were propaganda. Um but I had a Gideon Bible in my little efficiency apartment, and I started uh reading the Bible where the tracks sent me, and over the next several months, uh this was October 87, uh January 88, after studying the Gospel of John, letter to the Romans, as the track sent me, I came to faith in Christ. And then a few weeks after that, in February, I finished my flight refresher training and returned to the family in Houston, and we began rebuilding our life, our marriage, uh, how we all all of life, basically. Uh so that started with us on our faith journey, um, mid-adult, 30 years old or so. Wow. So yeah, it was and there's a whole lot more circumstances to it. Um, but uh it it would take a whole lot more time to go into it. Amazing, amazing details of God's providence, which just began my journey of comprehending, looking for, and understanding the providence of God, which is amazing. Absolutely.

Chris Grainger 7:49

And most times people think that uh, you know, the faith journey, particularly if you grew up in Wisconsin on a farm, that maybe you would have been exposed to it as a child. But it's interesting because usually the stats show the longer we wait, the lower the probability it becomes that we're going to surrender our life to a worship of Christ. So it's you're you're one of the few that made it you said it was your early 30s, is when you when you had that conversion moment.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 8:13

It was about it was about the time around my 30th birthday. But you know, looking back, and this is part of the providence of God, looking back uh in eighth grade, I remember I was uh seeking answers to to bigger things. And I even uh participated in a local confirmation class uh on my own initiative. I remember there were two or three other young uh students in there with the pastor of a local Lutheran church, and uh and I vaguely or I've I remember specifically, you know, asking him probing questions for that year. But I was a a year late in the normal it normally if I remember it was seventh and eighth grade, and I was I started it in eighth grade, and then peer pressure took over. As a high schooler, I wasn't gonna continue with it, and that stopped it. But so there was there was there were seeds planted even in my youth uh that I can look back and see. Right.

Chris Grainger 9:10

That's wonderful. So I mean, f from your standpoint, growing up with in in on the farm, obviously getting an opportunity to go out, going to West Point, all the wonderful things you were able to do. When did you know that this path towards you know being an astronaut and and spaceflight, all when was that when did that seed get planted in you?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 9:29

Uh during my time at West Point, um it about halfway through, uh my mentors uh were largely helicopter pilots that had just returned from Vietnam, went to graduate school, and they were teaching there. Uh I got to know uh quite a few of the I got to know the whole helicopter um detachment staff, all the pilots. Uh they became very close friends uh because I I joined the skydiving team, actually. So so I was flying every weekend uh by my jumping out of perfectly good airplanes. Okay, I got

West Point Mentors Spark Astronaut Dream

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 10:04

there's no such thing as a perfectly good airplane. Uh so that they all inspired me, and one of them was aspiring to be an astronaut himself, and later he was. Jim Adamson got selected in 1984. But uh the path to uh to that uh included uh the experimental test pilot school. So I I read Tom Wolfe's book, The Right Stuff, uh at that time. That inspired me. Um and uh and I I loved engineering. I I switched my focus from civil engineering to aeronautical engineering. Um and then so that it was really uh during those years. In 1978, the first Army astronaut was selected, Bob Stewart. Um, and prior to that it had all been, you know, uh Navy and uh Air Force jet pilots mostly. So I knew as an Army officer the potential was there, and so that that set all of the goals in place. I wanted to go to flight school, I wanted to fly, I wanted to become an American experimental test pilot, I wanted to go get more education in engineering, and uh and and wanted to uh become an astronaut, and all of that unfolded over the next uh 18 years or so.

Chris Grainger 11:20

And then I mean as you and then you had this moment where you where you surrender your life to to Christ, and obviously that started changing the dynamics in your home and your family with your relationship with your wife and your children, but you're in a very you know perceived secular type of work field with with particularly with NASA, but in in anything from from that from that the military standpoint as well. How did how did you manage that and seeing that that shift in you as well?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 11:46

Yeah, well, as I said, I came to faith in 1988. Uh I didn't get selected to be an astronaut until 1996. Uh looking back, it was probably too early to put a young believer into the classroom teaching, but I I I ended up doing that. So I was teaching, and and the best way to learn anything is to teach, right? So I was teaching the Bible to adults. I uh studied

Faith At NASA Meets Science Question

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 12:14

and learned the Bible and theology fairly quick in my Christian walk, and I was drawn to that. I was that that be consumed me in my free time, if you will. So by the time I get to NASA, I have a pretty good um grasp of the overall redemptive plan of uh God through Christ. And I also had I remember reading a a book, uh a Puritan book by John Flavell called The Mystery of Providence. Um so I was already fascinated with that concept and and seeing it in my life, you know, past and anticipation of future. Uh so when I enter NASA, I have a an acute awareness of and sense of responsibility of stewarding the unique experiences that I was likely going to get there. Um and also as an astronaut, we become NASA's ambassadors. So we're out speaking all the time, regularly, to schools and community groups and other conferences and whatnot. So early on, I would get the question: how can you work at NASA and be a believer? Or how can you work in the field of science and be a believer, which of course betrays the common perception that there's a conflict. So I I focused on that broad question early on as well to be able to uh address the question. Um and now I give up to I I think the most extensive thing I've done was a five-session weekend conference to address that question. Um, both in my experience as well as my personal faith, as well as the history of science and scientific endeavor and the age of science, uh, as well as what produced the perception of conflict. The bottom line is there is no conflict. It's a lie that there's a conflict. In fact, scientific endeavor, as we really have uh seen it historically, can only be understood through the biblical presuppositions of God not only creating all things, but provisioning his creation for our good and for his glory, which includes the ordering, the mathematical ordering of all things. Um so the conflict, I call it the greatest in a negative way, could say most successful propaganda campaign in modern history, which of course largely occurred in the uh late 1800s or late 1900s, I'm sorry, late 1800s, early 1900s. And the perception still exists. Everywhere I go, I ask the question how many believe there's a conflict between science and scripture, uh, or have heard of it, and everybody hears of it. Some people will say they don't believe it if they're believers, but many do believe it to be true because that's all we've heard. It it's a very interesting history, uh, but it's a complete lie of fabrication, and that's even shown in the academic world. We don't have time to go into all the details, but there were some academics in the late 1800s that published uh and uh the history of science and and Christianity and showed that there was conflict after conflict after conflict throughout history and that the regressive force of religion held back the progressive force of science. Um but it in the uh what we call nowadays peer reviews, eventually the when the academic world looked closer at their work, they found it was all fabrication. But it it's still rooted in the public mind.

Chris Grainger 16:04

Well, I mean you definitely you've come a long way with it. You you've been a staple for so many with your faith. Um maybe take us through, you know, you you said there was a period, I think you said 88 is when you came to Christ. 90 or mid-90s is when you became an astronaut. So there's there was a time there where maybe you were questioning, is this gonna happen? Am I gonna actually become an astronaut? Is this gonna get there? Your faith is being tested along the way. Walk us through how you how how you wrestled with that. I'm sure you're wrestling with God a lot in those moments.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 16:37

Uh actually, I was growing in confidence in God, growing in his um and trusting his providential plan. Um, there were disappointments, yes. I I uh interviewed first with NASA in 1987. It went really well. I got invited to to work there, not selected as an astronaut, but to work supporting the astronauts

Disappointments That Built Trust

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 16:59

as an engineer, operational engineer. Uh so I did that. And the next uh so I was there working, I was working space shuttle flights. It was the return to flight after the Challenger accident. Um really, really a lot of fun. Um and uh the next interview uh uh came along, or the next class of astronauts they were going to select. And I I got passed over. I didn't even interview. It's like, what happened? Well, it it uh turned out the feedback I got was it it was an administrative mistake. Uh I should have been interviewed, but they just it was an oversight, and by the time the last interviews got called, I was missed. The feedback I got encouraged me to stay and continue to to work and work toward it. Uh so then the next round in 1992, I interviewed. So it's my second interview, it's my fourth application, I think. And uh I get medically disqualified. I what I would call a technicality. Um it was something in my blood related to my thyroid, and still to this day I have a healthy thyroid. Um, so I thought, okay, Lord, you've got something else in mind. He opened the door for me to go to test pilot school, which is what I always wanted to do, but I was gonna forego because of uh maybe an early opportunity at NASA. So I I went, we went, we moved to uh Maryland, I did that for a year, and then went to Edwards Air Force Base and flew as a test pilot for two years, loved it. It was a wonderful opportunity, things I had always wanted to do. And then in 1995, they had another selection. I was still medically disqualified. I didn't even get interviewed. Uh, but after that, they scrubbed the medical requirements in 1996. What had disqualified me was no longer a disqualifying standard, if you will. I interviewed in 96, got selected. So it wasn't uh so much as a of a struggle or disappointment or wrestling with God as it was a building confidence in okay, Lord, that door closed, it's still closed, this other door's opening, uh, here I am, you know, send me, uh, kind of thing. Um uh and of course he is faithful ultimately. So I I consider it by grace that I was even able to have that perspective, uh, because normally we have an inclination to struggle and say, Well, why me? I have this desire, why why can't I get it see it fulfilled? But uh thankfully that wasn't the case with me. And and now I look back, that's why I love the providence of God, because uh He He has in store for us each one of us. You know, He ordains every day before they they they come to pass. Um they're they're written in His book. Uh and to live a life and even in the valleys, even in the struggles, and I've had those uh with that trust is an amazing grace.

Chris Grainger 20:09

Uh love it. Love it. Well, thank you for sharing that. Uh guys, we're gonna take our first break and we'll be right back. If you're like me, you don't need another book just sitting around collecting dust. What I enjoy is something to help guide me when my feet hit the ground in the mornings. And that is why we put together Unleashing the Lion Within. It has honest stories, scripture you can apply, and simple steps to help you lead at home, at work, and everywhere in between. So if you've been feeling stuck or scattered lately, you may find this resource encouraging. Read a few pages. Take one step and watch what God does with your obedience. Hey, and if reading's tough for you right now, no problem. The book is also available in Audible version so you can listen on the go. So if this sounds interesting, check out thelionwithin.us slash book or search for unleashing the lion within directly on Amazon. So there's no pressure here, just a resource that many guys are finding helpful. So grab the format that fits and take your next step. All right, guys. So look, we're we're we're having this wonderful conversation with Colonel Jeff, and and now, you know, maybe take us to the point you got the the word that you're gonna be an astronaut, that you're going to space, you know, and just maybe you and your spouse, you know, your faith, all the things are are moving in the right direction. How did you how did you guys celebrate and manage that that the emotions that come with knowing it's a great opportunity? Also, some fear there, I'm sure, from her standpoint, just like how how did that look like for you and her as you with your marriage as you were getting this wonderful news for your career?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 22:00

Well, Anna Maria definitely been growing in her faith as well. Um and she um in in spite of the issues that we had had that uh and the circumstances that led us to come to faith, uh, she was a a great army wife, too. So she had

Selected For Space And Family Weight

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 22:19

suffered through lots of uncertainties of uh deployments and how long was I gonna be gone and and all of that, what was gonna happen. And um so she had been prepared by the Lord, I think, uh, through those years to uh to be a wife of an astronaut. But I I still will admit to her and anybody else that I can't fully comprehend what she went through. Uh as a wife watching me get into a rocket and getting ready to launch and then launching and going through all that. And I got a little taste of that. You know, I I launched four times. Once on a space shuttle, three times on a Russian Soyuz, which is a completely different um experience, uh uh, obviously. Um and I was very relaxed. Um in fact I took a nap during quiet times and the launch countdowns every time. Uh uh so very relaxed, very ready to go. And that's not untypical among astronauts. Uh the the the preparation, the training is is and and then of course the disposition of an astronaut is maybe different than some other people that would be claustrophobic or something or subject to fear. Uh but I will admit, every time I was there watching a launch countdown and being, for example, with the families of crew member friends that were getting ready to launch, and I was not launching, then then I had I suffered all those anticipations and nervousness and and whatnot. So it it's a completely different perspective. So yeah, it was it was uh I know tough on her. She's she's the hero in the story in that respect. And she, and there were not only four different flights, but as I said, three of them launched on a Russian Soyuz from Kazakhstan, halfway around the world, and she went to every launch. It took her 48 hours to get back home after a launch, and each of those launches, I was leaving the planet for about six months. Right. So you have the the adrenaline rush and the the obvious risk of riding a rocket that only lasts for nine minutes and then getting to orbit, but then you have six months of kind of integrated accumulated accumulation of lower stress, but still anticipating, okay, that entry through the atmosphere and the opening of the parachute has to work, you know, months from now to re to successfully return to Earth. So yeah, it it was quite a story. I think both of us, uh, and hopefully our boys as well grew in faith through those experiences. And they were they were largely wonderful experiences in spite of the the stress and uh and the uh uh the the fear or the the uh or other emotions that she might have gone through and or that we went through collectively. I you one of the the key things was we had the ability to communicate um regularly. So we talked every day, at least twice a day. Um and then we would have a video, two-way video conference on Sunday afternoons. So NASA does a good job, very sensitive to all those things, and does a good job of taking care of the family and making sure that we're we're staying in touch. Um so there's a whole lot more to it, but that's in general how I want to describe it.

Chris Grainger 25:58

Well, take us to that that first your first trip. You're you're sitting in the rocky, you're getting the countdown's on. There's so many myths out there, there's so many movies out there. So maybe debunk some some common myths on what is it like to actually be in a rocket and to take off and to fly. I'm just super curious. I I never get a chance, I may never get another chance to ask an astronaut this, so I figure I'd take advantage of it. So what's a myth what's the myth out there that that maybe Hollywood gets wrong?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 26:27

Uh well, I don't watch many movies, and and uh uh the um the best movie I would say that's that did a pretty pretty good job of realism was Apollo 13. Okay. And of course that goes through the the unique uh flight of the failure of landing on the moon and and then barely saving that crew to get them back uh after a uh oxygen tank blew up. Uh and and they

The Reality Of Rocket Launch

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 26:52

did a good job in that movie. But uh it I mean back to real experience, it uh riding a rocket, you it's uh an adrenaline rush, obviously. In the space shuttle, it produced seven and a half million pounds of thrust, and you knew something significant just happened in your life when you you felt the main engines light off, you felt the whole thing kind of shake, and then the solid rocket boosters lit off six uh seconds later, and you were off and raining or uh off and uh on for the races. I remember at that moment looking over my shoulder. I was a flight engineer, and I had a window over my head, and and seeing the the plume of all the smoke and energy um just bellowing below us and feeling the shaking of the of the rocket where you it was shaking so hard you could hardly read the displays for the first two minutes, and then seeing the the ground just just drop below you, you know, just fall below you, and and then seeing the beach and uh just just an incredible uh experience, obviously. Um when uh uh uh about four minutes into the ascent, we were we were upside down. In about four minutes we rolled heads up, and uh I could see the east coast, so we're flying up the east coast. Uh see the east coast, you know, look like a map, uh because we're already up pretty high, and uh, so you get the whole view of the east coast. And then uh we had blue sky, bright blue sky above the the weather systems, any weather systems, and then you see the blue fade to black, and you know you're leaving the atmosphere and entering space. Um, and then uh it only took eight minutes and 53 seconds to get to orbital speed, which is 17,500 miles an hour. So you're feeling three G's roughly the entire time. Um uh so yeah, an incredible uh short period of a lot of energy to accelerate you to that speed, going 17,500 miles an hour, and now you're orbiting the Earth every 90 minutes. So uh pretty pretty intense, obviously. And then when you get to orbit, uh the engines cut off, and now you feel from 3Gs to weightless, and now you're just kind of floating in the straps of the seat. You release the straps, and I remember very vividly floating out of the seat and going right up to the window and seeing the whole globe of the earth. Uh just an incredible sight, and uh uh obviously. And you know, even after a year and a half in space of time, I never got tired of that view, seeing the the wonder of God's work of creation, of Earth specifically, um uh provisioned for our habitation. I mean, it is home. Um and you you have an uh an acute appreciation of that being off the planet looking back at it. And and we just we just uh saw uh the witness of that response from the Artemis crew when they went farther up. They went 250,000 miles out to get to the go around the other side of the moon and view the yeah.

Chris Grainger 30:10

100%. I mean I and I tell guys too, I mean, I can't even imagine the the view you had, but that's why I I take the uh the window seat on a flight. I mean, that to me that's the closest we get to heaven, you know, what for just regular, you know, everyday individuals when we get to to fly up and see that. And for you, I love how you titled your book, The Work of His Hands. And maybe just take us, just take us there. That that all moment you had, and then how you kind of turned that into you know, so much of a focus on uh the pictures and and and capturing the moment so that you could share that with others.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 30:44

Yeah. I knew ahead of time talking to some of my I was the only rookie in my first flight, so everybody else had experience in space. And one of the things that was impressed upon me was the importance of of capturing the memories. Uh, because on a space shuttle flight, it was only 10 days long and it was very intense. And it was when you got back to to the ground, it's like, okay, what happened to me? It it was it happened so fast, it's hard to digest everything. Um, so I knew the best way to capture a memory was through a photograph. Um in my subsequent flights, as I

Earth From Orbit And The Work Of His Hands

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 31:19

as I said, each were about six months in duration. I my passion was to capture all of the imagery that I could uh during my free time. So they say I took almost a half a million pictures um over the next three flights in particular, uh, because I wanted to one, capture the memories, but also gain get the perspective that could be shared with everybody else. Um, and specifically the beauty of the earth and not all the variety, the wide variety of the earth. And uh and really I did it not only to collect data for science, but for the art of it, for the again, the beauty of it, the beauty in awe and wonder. So I captured a lot of photography. I trained really hard to study photography and to practice it beforehand, um, which they gave us opportunity to do. We had some great photography instructors. Uh when I got back, uh one of the lead Earth observation uh scientists said, Hey, Jeff, you need to write a book, because he was impressed with the photography, which I was sending down. It was digital, even in those days. Um uh and I said, Well, if you can figure out how to write a book, I'll support that. Yeah, how we and I assumed it would be a NASA publication. I'm not gonna go through all the details of how it came to be, but I was given the opportunity to publish my own book. So I collected up a bunch of pictures and I wanted to tell the story and I wanted it to be personal. And of course, a personal story would include the element of faith for me. Uh so the book, The Work of His Hands, which is uh a line out of Psalm 111, one of my favorite passages of scripture, uh, when you consider the context we're talking about. Um I the arc of the book goes from launch to landing in uh my second flight, which was again on a Russian Soyuz from Kazakhstan, six months on the space station. Um, a lot of elements. I'll let your listeners go get the book to read the details. Uh we don't have time today. But um the highlights of the flight are in the book, like spacewalks. Uh we returned to flight uh the space shuttle during my stay up there. So the resume assembly of the space station after the Columbia accident, uh, which uh grounded the space shuttle after the loss of that crew for a couple years. Uh but then I also weave into the the arc of the theme of the flight of the uh the the theme of flight in the book, God's works of creation, provisioning his creation, sustaining his creation, his work of redemption in Christ, and just the awe and wonder of studying his works from that vantage point, uh um uh of uh specifically the the beauty and the wonder and the variety of earth, which is our home, our habitation. I I say in the introduction that my goal is to vicariously take the reader through the experience. So that that was my my goal.

Chris Grainger 34:33

Love it. Love it. We did a phenomenal job with it, absolutely. But guys, we're gonna take our next break. We'll be right back with Colonel Jeff. Let's just say it out loud. Marriage is one of the greatest gifts that God can give a man, and one of the most consistent places where we can feel unsure of what we're doing. Even the strongest marriages have moments where you look at your wife and you think, you know what? I love you. I'm so committed to you. But right now I have no idea what I should do next. And that's why we launched something new inside the line within us community. It's our very first support group. And it's for husbands. And we're calling it committed and occasionally confused. This isn't just a place for men in crisis. So if you're there, hey, you're welcome. This is for any man who refuses to coast and wants to take his marriage from good to great. So inside, you'll find an active chat and a feed and honest conversations and brotherhood that says, You're not alone. We've been there. Let's bring this to God and grow. And we're also doing a monthly couples night where your wife is invited because we're not letting the world set the agenda for our homes. Now, if you want access to this support group, it's very simple. Go to thelionwithin.us and join the Lions Den. Okay, that's the LionWithin.us. Start your 30-day free trial of the Lions Den community, and boom, you have instant access to the committed and occasionally confused support group. We'll see you inside the den. So one thing that Colonel Jeff won't, when I was showing this book to my wife, you know, she she's a big photographer, loves it. She fell in love with this book. And she was just surprised at the detail, the granular detail that you could get. In our minds, you know, you're in a space station, the the earth is the earth, but you could really get some really uh detailed outlines of specific things that you're looking at. So it was, I mean, apparently it has some really good equipment, or is that really what the the view is like from that from that vantage point?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 36:40

No, well, there are pictures in there of uh uh what would be more like the unaided view, which is the globe. You know, you see the globe, you can see continents, you can see major things. But yeah, we have some great equipment up there. We had uh in those years, it this was 2006, we had uh Kodak Nikon

Space Cameras And Time In Space Record

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 37:01

760, I think was the model, which was a state-of-the-art at the time, digital camera, and we upgraded through the Nikon professional grades uh through the years. We continue to have the latest professional Nikon camera. Uh it just happened to go the Nikon route as opposed to Canon. Um but we also had a uh uh an array of lenses that would be uh the envy of any photographer to include up to 800 millimeter lens. So many of those pictures that capture that detail was through either a 400 or an 800 millimeter lens. Um and the uh the windows um are optical quality, so you can you can get some some pretty good detail with a even a lens at large. Right. Wow.

Chris Grainger 37:49

It's incredible. It's incredible. And I know at some point, I think it's been surpassive if I remembering right, but at some point you did hold the record for the most time in space, correct?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 37:59

Among Americans, yeah. And my last flight, uh, which was the third six-month flight, fourth flight altogether in 2016, I um uh attained a total time of 534 days, and that set a new record among Americans. Historically, there were, I think, 10 or 12 Russians that had even more time than that. And the uh the Russians, of course, were flying space stations before the International Space Station, so they had uh uh I think the the current record might be just under a thousand days in space. But you're right, uh another American Peggy Whitson exceeded my time even a year later in 2017, I think.

Chris Grainger 38:47

Well, I know there's been a resurgence of interest in the space program, particularly with Artemis. You've already mentioned that. So are you encouraged by that? I mean, what do you what what are your thoughts right now on how people are kind of leaning back into it?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 39:00

Well, yeah, the uh the whole moon thing uh drew a lot of attention, a lot more attention than space station has. Um and that's a good thing. Yeah. Uh it it inspires people. People need, we need inspiration. You know, it's uh uh the uh a lot of the advances that we've enjoyed in uh few recent decades, uh people will attribute, and I think it's a it's a fair argument, will attribute to the inspiration that occurred in the 60s with the Apollo program and going to the moon. And now that that's the Artemis program is revitalizing that. You know, that uh through the media, through the lens of

Artemis Momentum And Biblical STEAM

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 39:41

the media, everything is overstated. I mean, this is one this this Artemis II mission was one small step, you know, toward actually getting back to the moon. Um but it it draws a lot of attention. Uh it's a good thing. It's uh, you know, the history of humanity is the history of exploration and discovery. Um and of course, the discoveries made throughout history to include in the in the future can be used for good or for evil. Uh so we have to keep that in mind as well. But um to be able to do that is uh is really direct evidence of two general principles, two general realities. One is God has provisioned his creation in amazing ways. Um we think about STEM, I would add A to STEM and make it STEAM. The A is art. So science, technology, engineering, art, and math. Um the laws of nature require a lawgiver, and he is the lawgiver, and he has imposed those laws on his work of creation. There's a mathematical ordering to all things. There's this uh there's a chemical ordering, there's a physical ordering. There's we see it in optics and the electromagnetic spectrum. Everything is ordered, it's ordered precisely, and it's uh it's uh reachable by we who bear the image of the creator and have been given a mandate to be fruitful, multiply, subdue creation, have dominion over all living things. Um the sub the subduing mandate includes scientific endeavor, technology development, engineering. Uh it assumes that mathematical ordering. So that that that's the objective truth uh of God's work of provisioning and sustaining his creation. But then also we bearing the image of God have been given this capacity, uh first a curiosity to go look and go search, uh, exploration and discovery, and then a capacity to to to in the discoveries do experiments and do development and produce things for our good and we would say for the glory of God ultimately. So it's all right there in Genesis 1. The objective truth of God's ordering of creation, provisioning, and our ability bearing the image of the creator to be creative and and go do all that. That's the biblical worldview of all steam.

Chris Grainger 42:25

Right. Well, and that's kind of led you now to this uh next project I know you're so excited about, and I want to make sure we have plenty of time to unpack that. So kind of give the listeners where you're headed to now, where you feel like God's calling you and how this is all tying together.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 42:40

Yeah, the the Lord has put together um keeps opening doors, I guess, uh putting together team, resources, interests, um, and the vision is coalesced to this. I call it the uh it's a working title right now, but so far we haven't gotten anything better. I call it the PNW Science and Wonder Center. And uh people say, what's PNW? And um, well, it's the Pacific Northwest, so it gives it a regional identification. I tease people, I say, well, I'm gonna teach the world what PNW stands for. You know, we we moved from Houston five and a half years ago and

PNW Science And Wonder Center Vision

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 43:18

moved up to Washington State uh to join a ministry up here. Actually, it's a Slavic Russian-speaking ministry that has a worldwide reach. Um, so it's been an amazing journey in itself. But uh the uh the community leadership, uh many people, key people in the community have um fed into an idea that's culminated in this Science and Wonder Center. I'm collaborating with the Answers and Genesis organization, collaborating with the Institute of Creation Research, I'm uh collaborating with the Master's University in California. Um uh uh it's comparable or it's intended to complement the Creation Museum in the Ark Encounter uh in Kentucky, the Museum of the Bible in Washington, D.C. Um and it will have a complementary theme of uh steam through a biblical worldview. So it'll be uh like uh elements of a science museum, but also uh up here we're within reach, we're we'll be about 20 minutes from the Portland airport, Portland, Oregon, in southwest Washington. Um and we don't get a lot of tourists in the cold uh rainy winters. So it will also be designed to be a regional resource for recurring use uh in all of those areas. Um it's about a $130 million project. And probably growing because the vision continues to expand, but we'll see what uh what we end up converging on. But I've secured now the land for it. We're going through the studies of the land uh and and beginning to raise the capital so that we can close on the land the beginning of next year. If we raise the capital, we could theoretically have this thing open as early as late 29. Realistically, it'll be, I think, 2030 or later. But again, that's dependent upon raising the capital. We set up a nonprofit last year. I took six men uh uh uh last May to the Ark and Counter and the Creation Museum, and we got back uh shop tours and spent a lot of time with the leadership there, brainstorming this. So it got a lot of support, growing support across the country. So it it'll it it'll be a major resource, particularly to strengthen believers in their comprehension, their understanding the biblical worldview of science, technology, engineering, art, and math specifically, but in the bigger context of the gospel. Um and uh I'll add this too. We've in recent years, of course, with uh COVID and then all the political turmoil that's going on, social things that have been going on in recent years, it has called the question in the public mind the authority, if you will, of just the word science or the authority of scientists, especially in COVID. So there's a lot of questions out there, and that that presumed authority is there's a nick in the armor. Um, and again, it's the authority of a science that is contrary to religion, specifically contrary to Christianity. So it's a wonderful opportunity, in my view, uh in in terms of uh the history and the circumstances of history to actually present the truth. Um, a wonderful opportunity for the gospel because that biblical worldview, of course, is only understood through the gospel message of Jesus Christ. So that's really what's driving this whole thing. And it's been amazing how the Lord continues to open doors. And I tell people, I'm not leading this. This is not my personal passion, if you will. I'm just trying to steward the open doors the Lord keeps putting in front of me.

Chris Grainger 47:25

So do you think uh for the for the center itself, you envision people coming there and there'll be classes and and lectures, or is this more of a walkthrough experience, like a personal one-on-one experience, kind of like the Ark encounter? What's your vision for the for the experience of the person who's coming, or the family that comes, or a church that comes to the center?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 47:45

It'll have elements of all of that, so there opportunities for all that. Certainly it'll be a destination where people come spend a day or maybe more walking through it, uh, through the content, uh, and we'll have major displays that cover all the different areas of science. I envision, of course, electromagnetics, uh uh math and science, or math and uh uh mathematics is is amazing in itself. Uh physics, chemistry. Uh I plan on um uh the centerpiece and the entryway will be a um Fucao pendulum, which uh is a wonderful demonstration of physics. Uh it's got a whole story. It actually I was exposed to a pendulum in the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry when I was about 14, 15 years old, and it had a I still have vivid memories of it, and I it it inspired me to do a lot of thinking on how that might work. Of course, it'll have a space uh the subtitle is a space-themed destination for exploration and discovery. So it'll have my personal identification, so it'll have a personality attached to it, but only um not that I want it to be about me, but it's again stewarding the experiences that the Lord has given me. So it'll have elements of the space theme, it'll have a little story of the space station, it'll have ongoing um uh exhibitions on what's going on in the Artemis program as appropriate. So that'll be changing. Um it'll have all of that. So it'll be a destination in that respect, but it'll also be a place where the local population can have recurring activity, go through a course in physics, go through a course in chemistry, um, you know, enter a project that lasts for months, uh, developing a robotics capability. The robotics is very popular really around the world right now, so it'll have elements like that. It'll also uh have periodic uh, of course, lectures or concerts or uh conferences. It's envisioned to have conferences either in the initial phase or in phase two, we'll have a conference capability. Right now I'm trying to push that into phase one. We'll see if the if the capital race supports it.

Chris Grainger 50:08

Yeah, that could be huge as well. I mean, think about just the opportunity to bring faith leaders together in a setting in a you know in a sitting like that with the technology. I mean, it's just it could be some wonderful conversations to be had and discoveries to be had to tie the all that together.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 50:25

Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. Um I mentioned the Masters University earlier. I hope to have extension courses from Masters University. And by the way, I uh you're for folks to understand me a little bit more, probably the the person that uh influenced me more more than anybody else. Um I mean, I read a lot of history, a lot of Puritans, a lot of uh, you know, I've been through the all the Reformation history, I've studied all that. But John MacArthur um is probably the one that uh impacted me the most. He became a dear friend. Uh of course he he went to to the Lord last year. Uh but uh his he really taught me the Bible more than anybody else.

Chris Grainger 51:07

Uh I was definitely gonna ask you about that. I mean, you know, you he he had he wrote some in the work of his hands and the forward. He wrote the forward for the zero gravity. How did you get connected with with Mr. MacArthur?

MacArthur Mentorship And Fast Questions

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 51:21

Uh he had impacted me so much uh from the late 80s through the 90s after I discovered Grace to You, the radio program, and I was listening to it every night uh that I could, that I wrote a letter to them in the late 90s and said, Hey, I'm I'm introduced myself, gave my testimony, said I'm preparing for my first space flight as a gift of uh gratitude. I would like to fly something for the ministry. Uh and uh a good friend by the name of Jay Flowers was tasked with answering this letter, this unique letter. Um, and we conversed on the idea of flying a uh MacArthur study Bible on C D. Uh so I flew that. I even was able to load it after we undocked from the space station and got permission from Mission Control, so we used that to search the Bible as we viewed the Earth. Uh. And then I returned it to the ministry afterwards. So we met in late 2000, I think it was. Established a relationship. And I I've done many things for the Grace uh family of ministries over the years. I'm on the board of Grace to You. Uh I've been on the board for almost 10 years or so. So yeah, John became a dear friend. I as far as I know, the when he he uh wrote the forward for the zero gravity book, I as far as I know, that's the last thing he wrote that was been published uh you know before he passed away. So it was it was quite an honor to get that. And I know he wrote it because he was texting final edits even after I received the first uh draft or final draft. Wow.

Chris Grainger 53:01

Wow. What a what a what a hero of the faith and have him as a spiritual mentor. I'm sure that was that was huge for you. Yes, yeah.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 53:08

Again, the providence of God is amazing, and as believers, we we need to study it, to acknowledge it, to grow in gratitude for it, and it allows us to accept whatever comes along because we're trusting in the Lord's plan, uh, of course, with that transcendent hope of eternity in view, which uh makes the temporal things, the valleys, the tough things of life, um uh seem uh as truffles as like Paul says in Second Corinthians chapter four.

Chris Grainger 53:45

Well, I mean if you could go back and have a chance to with what you know now to sit down with with that young cadet at West Point, what would you tell him about faith and leadership and and pursuing God's God's will? He may not be ready to hear it, that that young Jeff at West Point, but what would you like to tell that guy?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 54:05

Well, I would I would uh I would find a path to get to the gospel message and the importance of the gospel message, of course, and even in the in the context of stewardship of life, uh that that's where you know when you address just goals of life or whatnot, well it it's a completely different perspective when you see it through the lens of the gospel. I obviously I would be a witness, I would try to be a witness to him to clearly articulate the gospel and challenge where he's going. You know, you got all this going for you. You've you've been um allowed to attend uh one of the greatest institutions in the world. It's gonna give you lots of potential opportunity in the future. But it's nothing, you know, whatever you're doing, it's nothing if uh you die separated from your creator. Or you live a life it it's all vanity, as uh you know, as Ecclesiastes uh clearly articul articulates uh we uh are in need of redemption. Um you are a sinner, we are sinners before God and we need to be redeemed, and that it only occurs through the w work of Jesus Christ, and trusting in that provision of his his uh death on the cross, which is a death that we owe God, his punishment for our sin. And trusting in that he grants us the forgiveness of sins, uh grants us his righteousness credited to our account, and eternal life. And with that perspective, then life takes uh temporal life takes on a whole new meaning. It gives greater purpose uh to give testimony and witness and glory to our creator who is also our redeemer.

Chris Grainger 56:13

Yes, sir. Absolutely. Love it, love it with Colonel Gent. This has been phenomenal. We before we wrap up, we'd love to do a little lightning round at the end of our show. So if you're willing to play along, we'll have a little bit of fun here at the end. Okay, all right. All right, all right.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 56:29

I'm not newing for short answers, but I'll I'll work at it.

Chris Grainger 56:33

That's all good. So the first one what's uh what's a hobby? What's something you enjoy doing for fun?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 56:39

We were talking about that yesterday. Somebody was asking me, I um I don't have many traditional hobbies. I'm I'm working, I'm studying, I'm reading. Uh uh, I in the past I loved running. Uh uh due to my back, I've stopped doing that. I still am very physically active, mostly lifting waist, but I loved running. I was a distance runner and just loved it. Uh camping, fishing uh in earlier years. Yeah.

Chris Grainger 57:04

What was your distance running? What were you doing there?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 57:08

But my my sweet spot was 10Ks. And uh, but I ran one marathon, I ran a uh a couple half marathons, uh a couple 10 milers, but uh they uh my sweet spot were uh were 10Ks just for fun, or most most of my running was just on my own. I just go, I would I did a lot of traveling and I'd find I would tour the city on a run, basically.

Chris Grainger 57:33

There you go. How about favorite cartoon? Uh I don't even I don't have one. Oh, it's gotta be the Jetsons. Come on.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 57:46

Oh, well, okay. I remember yeah, sure. As a kid, yeah. Actually, with drones and stuff, uh uh yeah, there's it's possible that we'll see the Jetsons like uh vehicles here pretty soon. There you go. So there are already some out there, so anyway.

Chris Grainger 58:05

There you go. What was your uh what was your favorite food on the space station? Not your favorite food now, but what your favorite food on the space station.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 58:13

Well, the favorite food uh changed over time. You know, you can have your a lot of your favorite, and pretty soon you get sick of it. So favorites, favorites have uh something you really like, but it's also something that you don't get very often or haven't had for a while. Sure. So I could, I could, I mean, even dill pickles became a treat up there. Um smoked salmon. I discovered my Canadian crewmate left. Uh I've overlapped with him three months and he left. And we all have some bonus food, we call it, that supplements the standard menu. And uh, of course, what he did not consume was fair game once he left, and I went to explore it and I found some smoked salmon, so that became a a special treat. Uh so it the variety is is uh was was important, more important than a particular favorite.

Chris Grainger 59:07

What about a superpower, Colonel Jeff? You if you could have a superpower, which one would you pick and how would you like to use it?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 59:16

Um that's related to a question of if out of science fiction, what would you want out of science fiction? I got that question several times in press conferences from space station. It would be beam me home for the weekend.

Chris Grainger 59:35

That would be nice, wouldn't it? Yes, yes. All right, maybe here's one a little bit more of a theme for our for our show. What when you think about God, what's your favorite thing about him?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 59:49

Um, I mean you don't ask simple questions, do you? My favorite thing about him is his the grace manifest in sending his son to take our place, you know, to redeem us. Um to so that we are adopted into the family, brothers and sisters of Christ. Uh he has a place for us in that promise of eternal life. And then that that uh illuminates and energizes all of life here. So we it's a it elevates our purpose in in living here uh with that anticipation. So I mean I love life here. This is this is great, even with the challenges. And by the way, I'm serving as a one of the pastors in our church. So, and anybody that's a pastor knows you know, you know, you're dealing with tragedies, you're dealing with problems, you're dealing with sin in the life of many. So there's nothing, uh, it's not rose-colored glasses I'm looking through. I'm I'm I'm experiencing day to day the realities of a fallen world. But that reality of God's redemptive work transcends that and gives purpose, gives purpose now in our daily struggles, working, you know, ministering to people, struggling with our own sin that we still wrestle with. Uh so there's a transcendent reality that enables and envision uh illuminates uh a bigger view uh beyond the trials of life.

Chris Grainger 1:01:31

Amen. Let's let's flip that question 180. What's your least favorite thing about the evil one? Um the effectiveness of deception.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 1:01:47

Uh he's a deceiver, and we all are all susceptible varying degrees in now and in the future of of falling to deception. Um and of course we see it all around us. Um we see it manifested against us sometimes. Uh people are easily deceived. We see it in the public square now with some bizarre, just bizarre movements that are out there, you know, turning good to evil and evil to good. It's it's a complete inversion of of reality.

Chris Grainger 1:02:28

Well, this has been an absolute pleasure and honor, sir. Last question for you is what do you hope the listeners remember the most from our time together today?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 1:02:40

Well, hopefully your stimulation uh stimulates a witness that uh causes each of us, each of us need that reminder to examine ourselves. Where am I in my walk of faith? Am I am I becoming relaxed? Am I being distracted? Am I uh becoming warm in my relationship with God or am I cultivating my relationship with God and growing and answering the call that He's given me in life with faithfulness and obedience to the call? That's what I hope uh stimulate. Um, we all need encouragement. That's that's why it's called the body of Christ. We are in need of each other. We hold each other accountable, we stimulate each other, we pray for one another, all of that in the body of Christ. I yeah, so I mean, I like I said, I have no short answers.

Chris Grainger 1:03:40

Love it. Well, where do you want to send the listeners to connect with you, to, to follow what you're building? Obviously, you get your books and things like that. Any places you'd like to send them?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 1:03:50

Yeah, uh, we have a website set up. It's called uh Spaceflight Foundation.org. Okay. Um and uh people can drop a note there, they can get on the contact list. Um that's the the website that articulates the vision uh and gives opportunity to actually support uh the uh the PNW Space uh Science and Wonder Center um in the early phases. I uh so yeah, spaceflight foundation.org.

Chris Grainger 1:04:22

Okay. And and your books, Amazon, anywhere else, Barnes and Noble?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 1:04:28

Uh I think you can get it anywhere at any bookseller. Amazon is where most people go. Yeah, the work of his hands, and uh and Chris Anderson did a uh a very nice job. I uh on the biography, uh Zero Gravity. I initially when he asked me six or seven years ago, I said no. Wait till I'm dead and do the hard work of research. But I finally agreed to it after months of him twisting my arm uh to to do it if he if he made it about God's work in the life of a man and not about the man himself. And I think he did a pretty good job of that.

Chris Grainger 1:05:08

Yeah.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 1:05:09

Absolutely, absolutely.

Chris Grainger 1:05:11

Well, thank you again today, sir. Anything else you'd like to share with our listeners before we call it before we wrap it up here?

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 1:05:17

Well, just I would say thank you, Chris, for your work. Uh I've gone through your website a little bit and of course talked to Rob. Some you're you uh you are a great encouragement doing what you're doing. What you're doing is relatively unique, uh as far as I can tell, but it appears to be a great and growing encouragement to uh to men out there in particular. And men need that. Men need that. Uh that encouragement, that accountability, that fellowship uh uh in in the Word of God, uh in the Logos in the Son of God in Jesus Christ. So thank you for that.

Chris Grainger 1:05:53

Amen. Thank you. And I don't also think it's a little ironic that we're recording this. Of course, this will come out later. We're recording it on May the 4th, right? May the fourth be with you, right? The Star Wars Day. So I just had to slip that in before we wrap up. But thank you so much for your time, Colonel Jeff. It's been an honor and definitely be praying for you and everything that all your endeavors in the future, sir.

Colonel Jeffrey Williams 1:06:14

Thank you, Chris. Thank you. God bless you.

Chris Grainger 1:06:18

All right, guys. Super thankful for Colonel Williams for coming on. Again, it's just an honor to be able to be able to sit down and interview someone like that with his uh background and on the wonderful thing God that God has done in his life. So I hope you guys enjoyed that one. Okay. So, question of the week this week is where do you need to trust God beyond your own limitations? We all have these places, fellas. We all do, okay. And if you need support, if you need encouragement, don't worry about it. Just reach out. This is what the land within us is here for. Okay. So share this one out. This would be a fun one to share out, particularly with your. With your buddies who like maybe some sci-fi and things like that. Hey, share this one. This is an astronaut telling his personal story. So you never know how that could be an encouragement to others. Other than that, fellas, the LionWithin.us is how you can get connected with us. We have many things happening at the Lion Within Us right now. Obviously, we've already talked about the daily spiritual kickoff. We had the Lion's Den, which we would love for you to be a part of Lion's Den. We have our leadership masterminds. And fellas,

Trust God Beyond Your Limits

Chris Grainger 1:07:12

we are just we're working on so many new things right now. The Bible app has been just one of one of our premier partners. So we're just putting out more and more resources on the Bible app. We have something fun and exciting that is in the works. Can't I talk about it on the podcast yet, but it is coming, fellas. It's a big, big deal for the line within us. So just be on the the kind of the lookout for that. We do have the weekly roar. Okay. So guys, we got tens of thousands of guys that have signed up for this. So if you just want a weekly email just to be encouraged, it's not something you're just going to want to hit delete and then throw it old file 86. Like you'll actually want to read this one because it's a short little reflection on how we can take God's word and apply it to our life. Sign up for that weekly roar. That'd be something maybe that you would be encouraged by. Okay. So all these things, fellas, this is what we do. So we do with the lion. Hopefully, you'll be encouraged by it. And we have the our book, Unleashing the Lion Within. So that's on Amazon as well as Audible version. So if you can get it, you can get a print, ebook, and audible all right there on Amazon. So guys, go check that out. The Lion Within, Unleashing The Lion Within is the name of that book. Okay. If you need someone to speak, start I'm starting to do this more and more. And getting some requests, we're trying to kind of filter through these. If you want, if you think there's an opportunity to support your men's group, your small group, whatever it looks like, uh, let us know. Reach out. Again, you can there's all sorts of ways to connect with us on the website. Uh, I'd love to come in, maybe do a little workshop, a little men's group, um, like a Saturday men's gathering. A lot just churches have those, and you want someone to come in and just kind of stir the pot a little bit. I'd like I'd happy to be that pot stirrer for you guys, okay? So let us know. You have opportunities to do that. Again, you can just hit support at the linewithin.us, that's an email address. You can send us your request there, and we're filtering through those. We already have a couple engagements booked up in 26. So I'm looking forward to getting those knocked out. But we'd love to find out how we can serve you more and how we can serve your men's group. One cool thing we can do with the book is we we can come in, we can actually kind of get to get get you guys started, and then you have some ability to walk right through some of the material from the line. We even have supporting resources we can help you out with to have a real effective men's ministry and to get that going. If you literally, if you want that book and just start using that book as a resource, you could take a whole year and just focus on your guys and