Richard’s Story And What We Measure

Chris Grainger 1:43

Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders, God intends you to be. I'm your host, Chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, fellas, meet episode time. Let's get into it. Okay. So the scripture of the week this week is Proverbs 28, the 19th verse. It says, one who works with his land will have plenty to food, we'll have plenty of food, but one who follows empty pursuits will have plenty of poverty. So, guys, that verse right there is so impactful. I took some time to unpack that at length in our spiritual kickoff episode. So go back one of your podcast feed. You'll see this SKO right there. And again, fellas, if you enjoy those, it's all about simplifying and applying God's word. We do it Monday through Friday at the Lion Within Us. It's called our daily spiritual kickoff. Go get started today. On our website, you'll see it's called Daily SKO. It's free. It also gives you access to our prayer request space. So we're praying constantly for guys. We're being intentional about that. And that's just our our way to serve you. We even have a gift that we would like to offer you, just a free gift for checking this out. So again, thelionwithin.us. Get started with that today, okay? So for this episode, it's gonna be a fun one, fellas. We're gonna be talking about cultivating it and how God grows the fruit of the spirit within us. And we brought in Dr. Richard Conwisher. So so so blessed to have him with us. Uh, he's the pastor of Peachtree Church in Atlanta, Georgia. Uh, great conversation with Richard. He speaks absolute truth. He has so much scripture memorized that that he's just it it's it's mind-blowing, guys. He's gonna come in here. You're gonna in this conversation, he's gonna just recite Psalm 46 just just like that. Just boom. He's just gonna just lay it out because he's just he's made it such a point to cultivate and to have the God's word in his heart, so that when he speaks, he's speaking truth. And I'm telling you, it's just such a great uh conversation with him. I think you're gonna have a lot of fun listening to him. He's married, uh, and they have two adult children, and just uh just a fun conversation all around, particularly for you guys who want to think about you know, what what are some ways, some some practical tips I can do to grow my spiritual journey? Richard unpacks a lot of them here. So enjoy this conversation, fellas. Richard, welcome to the line with Innis. How are you doing today, sir? Hey, Chris, it's good to meet you, and it's good to be with you and to connect with all the people that you try to encourage. Absolutely. That's what we're here to do. And we always like to start these conversations with just something fun about you that maybe not many people know about. So, do you have a little nugget about you, Richard, that uh that's not too well known? Absolutely.

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 4:21

Well, uh, my first paying job was in a magic store, kind of like the comedian Steve Martin. So I was a Boy Scout when I was 14 years old. Uh, believe it or not, at the time, I don't know if it still is the case, there was a merit badge on uh on uh kind of magic, and a guy from a local magic store came in and he and he led us through the through the merit badge. And he's he's like, I need one kid who will help do some inventory. Well, I'm doing inventory, manage the store for me, kind of mind the store. And so um slide of hand is a necessary pastoral skill. So I started that uh misdirection and uh all of that right at an early age. So you still play with magic these days? Yeah, no, not at all. But I I will say this though. I what I did, you know what my big takeaway from kind of what seemed to be a random job for a kid was um was the ideal of that people are hungry for revelation. They they're hungry to not be tricked. They're they're they're uh they want to be appropriately in awe and surprised by the world that God has made. And so even at a young age, I knew, hey, there's something here about um revealing delight that has always stuck with me. That's really cool. That's awesome.

Chris Grainger 5:40

Well, I'm super excited to have you on. Maybe for our listeners who haven't haven't run across your work before, just give us a little brief of your biography, just your background and how you came to know, most importantly, had your relationship with Jesus.

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 5:53

Yeah. So uh grew up in a Christian family with parents who came to my bedside every night. So growing up as a child, God's presence was always a reality that just surrounded our family. When I was in high school, um, I talked about uh, you know, kind of scouts. Um, my scout master and my youth director were caught in a uh, you know, a terrible affair, long-standing affair, which was devastating to me and to my youth group. I walked away from the Christian faith in high school and then in college came back to the Christian faith. I was literally coming back from the library late one night. The door was open. There was a neighboring dorm RA who was in there with another friend, and they said, Hey, Richard, before we go to bed at night, we pray with one another. Would you like to pray with us? And I was too shocked by the invitation to say no. Walked into that room, they prayed for me, um, and my heart melted, and God's presence flooded back into my life and my sophomore year of college. And then um later in college, experienced uh my call to pastoral ministry. It really was one of those lightning bolt moments of like, if this is what leadership can be, if this is what mobilizing Christians can be about, I'll give the rest of my life to it. And so went straight to graduate school and met my wife in graduate school. And we've had the privilege of serving churches in the New York City metro area in Southern California and in Texas, and we've been for nine years uh here in Atlanta. So I've been a pastor for uh 28 years.

Chris Grainger 7:31

Wow, wow, and you've landed there in Atlanta now. Yeah, that's great, great. Love, love that story. And and and so you're you're doing tremendous work. Obviously, you put a ton of work into your book, Cultivate, and just kind of what what led you to to want to focus on this topic and the fruit of the spirit because it's such an important area, but uh it can be confusing for a lot of guys. So I'm so glad you did. But yeah, what led you to this path?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 7:55

Yeah, I mean, if you if you go up to the typical Christian and and you were to say, like, how how's your life of faith going? Um, they could give you a variety of of different answers that you could you could say, hey, you know what, um I'm going to church this many times, or I did this many quiet times, or you could talk about, you know, hey, I'm giving this amount of money, or I'm having these conversations. Those are all input results and output results. But that's not how we're supposed to measure our life in God. So I like to think of it this way: if you, if you have an orange tree, and that orange tree, you you know it needs, it needs, you know, good soil, it needs water, it needs sunshine. Those are input results. Output results might be how many oranges it produces. Right. But the impact result might be that you take the oranges from that tree, you squeeze them in the juice, and you hand them to your son, and you get to see the smile on his face from having fresh squeezed orange juice. That's an impact result. The fruit of the spirit is an impact result. It's not like, hey, am I checking the boxes? Am I doing Christian-like activities? It's answering the more fundamental question: who am I becoming in Christ? And listen, Paul does not just pull this metaphor out of thin air. He doesn't, he's not writing his letter to the church at Galatia that's in all kinds of conflict and confusion and say, you know what? I just need a good image to like describe what the Christian life is supposed to be. Oh no, it goes all the way back. The first command in the Bible is to be fruitful. Right. And Jesus says, I've chosen you, I've appointed you to go and bear fruit that will last. There's an eternal quality to this fruit. And we know that there's a tree of life at the beginning of the Garden of Eden. We know that there's a tree of life in the book of Revelation that is for the healing and the saving of the nations. And in between, the book of Proverbs says, you know, we are the tree of life for the world. In other words, we are to bear this kind of fruit. We are God's tree of life for the world in need. And so the Apostle Paul draws from all of this rich of God being the gardener and us being the soil and the branches, uh, out of this abundant of this incredible image. The remember the spies in the Bible that come back from the, you know, they come back from the Holy Land initially and they bring this giant cluster of grapes. So this is not just some random image of, you know, like, hey, fruitfulness. It is pulling together all of Israel's story, all of God's story. And hey, this is what it's supposed to look like. Boots on the ground in your life, your life and mine is to be marked and characterized by love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and gentleness and faithfulness and self-control. This is who we are becoming when we keep in step with the very Spirit of God. Right.

Effort Without Earning And Abiding

Chris Grainger 10:55

Well, I'm curious so far as who we're becoming. I feel like I talk to a lot of guys and they get confused on the effort versus like what, like, what am I trying to do myself versus what God is doing through me? So how do you differentiate that? It's not, it's not an effort thing so much as fruit, it's just you have to abide. So how how do you clear that up with guys when they're when they get stuck here?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 11:17

Yeah. So one of my mentors put it this way: he said, grace is not opposed to effort. It is opposed to earning. Let me say that again. Grace is not opposed to effort, it's opposed to earning. Our effort is required in the sense of that this is a loving and this is a trusting partnership with God. Um, yeah, we are to abide in that famous passage from John 15 of I am the vine, you are the branches, those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me, you can do nothing. That doesn't mean that we're passive. It just means, of course, there's certain things that only God can do. So, I mean, let's take this agricultural image because most of us are city slickers and we, you know, maybe we have house plants, and that's usually about as far as a lot of people go with today's modern urban society. But let's put it this way: if you're a farmer, you know that the crop doesn't grow automatically, that you got to till the soil, you got to work the land. And you also know that even if you do all the right things, it doesn't guarantee that your crops are gonna grow. So you have this partnership, well, we'll keep this secular for now, with reality, that you can't make the rains come, you can't make the sun shine, you can't make the nutrients in the soil, but you gotta do your part. So it's that old, I think it was St. Augustine who said one time, work as though everything depends on you, but pray as though everything depends on God. We have to understand that God's initiative and providence intersects with our agency and we're able to participate. God, when when Jesus called the disciple, he said, follow me. That's not a passive act. Doesn't mean we earn it. It doesn't mean that we're entitled to it. But I think, I mean, one of the original sin of Adam was silence and passivity. And so most Christians I know are completely unintentional with their walk of faith. They're intentional with other aspects of their life, but they're unintentional when it comes to their life with God. I think deep down inside we know, like, hey, I need to become a more patient person. Let's just kind of excerpt that one. Well, that doesn't just happen on its own. And it doesn't just happen through willpower. It happens through an intentional surrender and partnership with the living God. Your character and mine can grow. Right.

Chris Grainger 13:51

And I guess that's where the your your cultivation metaphor kind of ties into. And then maybe you can start unpacking how you went, why you went there, because I thought it was beautifully done, but just love to get your your thought process behind that.

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 14:04

Yeah. So the the important thing for me with cultivation is it's an old word, but I it does kind of care that it bears that caring. When you cultivate something, you care about something, you are um pulling it together for the possibility of what it can be. And I start the book by talking about the original image for God in the Bible is God as a gardener and us as the earth. And God wants us to grow. And in order to grow, we need to cultivate his word, his love in our life. So what I that kind of the, I'm trying to rescue the fruit of the spirit from just being a vacation Bible school curriculum. I mean, this is the kind of thing that we teach kids. We forget, no, this is actually grown-up stuff that that, you know, becoming a person of gentleness is something that requires incredible partnership, effort, fortitude, and grace all at the same time. And so the the original language in the Bible of for Adam, it means earth. Uh, God is described in the first image in the Bible at the beginning of Genesis 2 is, and the Lord God, you know, kind of planted or cultivated a garden. This is what God's dream is for us to be able to share in this with Him.

Chris Grainger 15:30

Love that. Thank you so much for that. And for when you work with obviously your your congregation, but we're we're trying to focus on men here today. Which fruit do you think that men misinterpret or misunderstand the most? Like if you want to look at the list of nine.

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 15:49

Well, I think the guys that I talk to struggle with are patience and gentleness the most. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you why that is. We live in a society that says um everything about our phones is instant gratification. It's I need it and I need it now. And so we have become an impatient people. I'll give you an example of that that I tell in the book. So we used to live in Southern California and we lived really close to Disneyland. And um uh so we used to go to Disneyland with the kids all the time. We had the passes, and we had a rule that I would kind of a mantra, even that I would say with the kids, we don't wait in line for more than 15 minutes. We just don't. Right, right. And we, you know, we're we're neighbors of Disney. We don't have to ride that ride. And so we would even say, no more than 15 minutes. And we had some guests come in from out of town, and it was their one day at Disney, and they didn't care if it was a two-hour wait because this was their one shot. And I realized as I'm watching my kids wait for a two-hour attraction, that I was, I was like, who raised these brats? And my wife is looking at me, right? Because I'm the one that caused this. And I realized I had cultivated or I had trained them in instant gratification. I had trained them in becoming impatient. And I realized, oh my gosh, this is true, not just with my kids and with myself. Uh, we we are living in a world that tells us I need it and I need it right away. So patience would be one. Um, I guys are impatient. I see it in my office all the time where a guy will come to my office and he's struggling in his marriage, and he's willing to admit that there's a problem, but what he's not willing to do is to wait for a solution. Not everything, I all the times I have to tell guys, look, it took you a while to get into this problem. It's gonna take you a while to get out of it. Right. Just because God doesn't answer your prayer right now doesn't mean that God's not answering your prayer. In the same way, going back to the agricultural metaphor, I mean, it takes a long time to plant a field and to reap the harvest. And so patience would be one. The other one that I think guys particularly struggle with is gentleness. Social media today is uh an algorithm of outrage. So if marketing is trying to make you afraid, social media is trying to get you to be upset, to be angry. And the opposite of that is gentleness. Um, I mean, it is said of Jesus, the ultimate guy, that he was gentle and humble in heart. Right. And if we're just coasting through life, one of the one of the most frequently um thrown lines of my book back at me is you cannot grow the fruit of the spirit in the soil of selfishness. And if you are just going through your selfish life, because Paul contrasts the life of the flesh with the life of the spirit, if you're just going through the motions, going through that of the self, you will not grow into a gentle person. And listen, let me be clear. This is not a personality indicator. This is not a um, hey, I, you know, uh I'm not gentle. That's that's for my wife to be gentle. I'm more of, I'm more of the the joyful guy or whatever the case may be. No, no, no, no. This is one fruit. It's not the fruits of the spirit, it's the fruit of the spirit. And we're called to bear all of these dimensions or qualities or virtues of what it means to be in the spirit of the living God.

One Fruit And The Three Steps

Chris Grainger 19:36

Great point, guys. We're gonna take a first break. We'll be right back with Richard. If you're like me, you don't need another book just sitting around collecting dust. What I enjoy is something to help guide me when my feet hit the ground in the mornings. And that is why we put together Unleashing the Lion Within. It has honest stories, scripture you can apply, and simple steps to help you lead at home, at work, and everywhere in between. So if you've been feeling stuck or scattered lately, you may find this resource encouraging. Read a few pages, take one step and watch what God does with your obedience. Hey, and if reading's tough for you right now, no problem. The book is also available in audible version so you can listen on the go. So if this sounds interesting, check out the lion within dot us slash book or search for unleashing the lion within directly on Amazon. So there's no pressure here, just a resource that many guys are finding helpful. So grab the format that fits and take your next step. Richard, I'm so glad you brought up the this is an area that I that I didn't recognize until for quite a while, but so many guys, so many times I was taught that they are individual and it's not it's multiple fruit. It's the way it can be read that way. So how do you how do you clear that up for for guys when they're thinking, wait a minute, well, I got I'm plenty joyful, but yeah, I'm I'm not the most patient guy. So how do you you know help them frame that in the right ways, thinking that no, the fruit is is singular?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 21:15

Yeah, I mean, this is not like um there are introverts and extroverts, you know, this is not like uh um, you know, hey, I'm more gregarious and you know, that person is more shy. That's it's not what this is. This is not a, hey, there are different kinds of people out there, and there's the peaceful people, and you know, there's the self-controlled, disciplined people. No, that's not what this is. This is um, if we three, three things that Paul says in this text. If you belong to Christ, so it starts with that. It starts with understanding that we belong to him, that we are his, that he has paid a great price for us. It starts with grace. Then he says the next step is we crucify or we put to death destructive desires. And then thirdly, we keep in step with the spirit. If we participate in that pattern and we do that over and over again, what happens is God's fruit, as we abide in him, begins to grow. And so one of the things that I have found that's been super helpful with just not just this text, but in living with this for a while and helping to come alongside and coach other people in it is if you are willing to realize that this is the standard, this is the target, meaning we've forgotten what the goal of the Christian life is from a character development standpoint. Being a Christian is not doing Christian-like activities. It's good to do Christian-like activities, but they are the means towards the end of us becoming the kind of people that God has designed us to be. This is that's the other thing I would tell you is this like, look, you you were meant to live this way. You were meant to thrive in this way. We we don't flourish through greed and idolatry and selfishness or any of these kinds of things. No, we thrive when we actually live in the way that God has created, just in the way that a car thrives when it was made to do what it's called to do, to drive. And so that's how we're supposed to do it. And the way that Paul kind of talks about this is he kind of uses it as there's godly desires and there's fleshly desires. And fleshly desires aren't meaning that the body is bad and the spirit is good, because there's plenty of good things about our bodies and there's plenty of bad spirituality out there. It just means there's a godly way to live, and this is what that looks like, and there's a self-absorbed way to live, and that's what this looks like. And so he sets up the fruit of the spirit, doesn't come like dropped out in the sky, it comes to us in a letter and contrast is the mother of all clarity, and there's a great contrast between the works of the flesh and the life that is in the spirit. Yeah.

Chris Grainger 24:15

And you mentioned the crucified part. So so if guys are working in their area in their walk, they recognize there's certain areas that they need to, you know, focus on and be intentional about, that that seems to align with the crucified part. So how do you help guys walk through that? Okay, I recognize this is something that that is a stumbling block, and I need to, of course, correct. So what does that crucification look like? So how do you help guys there?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 24:41

Yeah, it it's an act of surrender, it is an act of letting go. Um there there's this scene in the Gospels where there is a man who is at the pool of Bethesda and he has been paralyzed and he's been there for decades. And he can't get to the pool to get healed by the miracle that happens in that place. And Jesus comes to that man and he says, Do you want to get well? And it's almost like in a in today's politically correct word world, it almost feels like an offensive question. Like here you have somebody who's paralyzed. Of course, he wants to get well. And he's got his excuses. And what's behind that question, though, is this sometimes we would prefer the dysfunction we know to the health that is offered to us in Jesus Christ. That we don't know who we are anymore apart from the way that we are. And so when I when I talk with people, and particularly guys, about maybe letting go of uh an addiction to alcohol or an addiction to sexuality or pornography, or even letting go just kind of of anger or some other kind of character defect that they know that needs to get rubbed out of them because it's destroying their relationships, that their, you know, their baseline rage is out of control. Um it's they, man, they don't know who they are without those things. And you have to, this is why it's paired with belong to Christ first, then crucify your um your kind of your out of alignment, disordered desires and trust Christ enough to lay that down. It's both an event and a process. Um and it's it's you know, that image of a living sacrifice. We we jump on the altar to offer ourselves to God and then we climb right off because we because we want to take back our lives and not just give it. So this is about surrendering your life to God and saying, God, I don't want to live this way anymore. Um and uh and I don't have to, but I have to lay it down.

Chris Grainger 26:59

Well, what about the guy who takes it too far and it's now it's it becomes a works-based righteousness type of thinking? Like how how do you how do you help that guy who swang too far on the pendulum to that direction?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 27:12

Yeah, I mean, it very clearly there is a corrective built in in scripture. We cannot read Paul's letters and come to the conclusion that, yeah, I did this myself. And so all of us are trying to, there's a a modern scholar who's not a Christian by the name of Jonathan Haid, and he's a moral psychologist. And he says this. He says, again, this is secular research. This is amazing when secular research catches up with the Bible. Right. He says this. Every single one of us is trying to figure out how we can be righteous. In other words, am I righteous uh because of my career? Am I righteous because of my generosity? Am I righteous because of my accomplishments or my relationships or whatever the case may be? All of us, he says, are righteousness factories. And I'm sitting there listening to his research, and I'm like, wait a minute, there is only one who gets us off of the righteousness treadmill and says, You were righteous, not because of anything that you've done, but because of what I've done for you, not because of the cross. And it's out of that acceptance that real transformation is possible. So um, so a friend of mine by the name of John puts it this way: he says, there's what's fixed and there's what's growth. And in the modern secular world, um, what we think of is fixed is uh everything kind of around us. And what we need to realize is what's fixed is our identity in Christ. And because our identity in Christ is fixed, it is secure. There's nothing you can do to make God love you anymore. There's nothing you can do to make God love you any less. He loves you not as you are. I mean, as you are, not as you should be. And uh because of that, now we truly can grow. And this is all over the scriptures, if you realize it. Like, God doesn't save the Israelites after they get their act together. He just saves them. And because he saves them, then he gives them the Ten Commandments. It's not like God comes to Israel and says, here's the Ten Commandments. If you keep these things enough, then I'll save you. No, the Ten Commandments is a standard, it's a list, kind of like the fruit of the Spirit, that tells us what does it mean to live in joyful, grateful relationship with the God who has rescued you. Right. So we do always have to remember that what we take pride in is in what God has done and not in any kind of growth we're doing on our own. Right.

Why Change Feels Slow At First

Chris Grainger 30:02

And I'm curious as well, like for some guys that I talk to, they get frustrated because things aren't happening, or maybe they feel like their spiritual growth isn't as fast as going as well as their buddies or whatever it may be. And that that growth can feel painfully slow at times. You know, so what's your encouragement when it feels like it's like, man, I don't think this is getting better at all?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 30:23

Listen, I for the longest time I felt like change was you put in this amount of effort and you get this amount of reward or impact out of it. And what I've discovered over time, and I think research backs this up, you put in effort, effort, effort, effort, effort, and you feel like you're beating your head against the wall. Right. You don't feel like you're getting anywhere at all. And then there's this tipping point or there's this breaking point where you put in effort, effort, effort, and all of a sudden things open up. And then it's like, oh, here we go. It's again, it's the seeds analogy. You're placing all of these seeds, and eventually God brings you a harvest. So yeah, if you bring a false assumption of um change management, thinking that, oh, all change, you know, I mean, nobody does one workout at the gym, right? And is like, oh my gosh, I'm skinnier. Right. Like you have to put in your time. And after you put in time and discipline and effort, eventually you show results and you hit the flywheel of those results. And so I think it's really important for us to have uh kind of level-setted expectations about how growth actually happens. And it's not the kind of thing that just automatically happens. So, guys, don't be discouraged if you don't see the change. Eventually, if you make this, I cannot believe that God does not answer this prayer in every sincere heart who asks it. Lord, I want to become more like you. I want to reflect more of you in the world. I want my character to change. If you genuinely, honestly surrender that before God and partner with him in one of these ways, in an anxious world to become more peaceful, I can't imagine that God doesn't answer that prayer in his good time.

Scripture Before Phone And Chapter Memory

Chris Grainger 32:18

Well, 100% of the time. That's it. That's it. Hey guys, we'll take a next break. We'll be right back. It's time to stop battling pornography, lust, and temptation alone. We're done sitting on the sidelines, seeing shame win, and hearing from guys that are fighting private wars with no backup. So we decided it's time to fight back. We have our sexual integrity support group, which is a confidential space inside the lion's den for men who are ready to step into the light and pursue real freedom. This isn't just for guys in crisis, by the way. It's for any man who's tired of the cycle, who's tired of living in secret, who's tired of saying this is gonna be the last time. Look, most guys don't need another app or some rules. They need some brothers to come alongside them to say you're not the only one. This doesn't define you. And freedom is possible. So look, inside our group, you're gonna find a confidential, judgment-free forum to engage and ask questions. You'll have honest conversations without combination. And you'll also have a monthly call with a trusted guide. So look, this isn't just about stopping pornography, it's about becoming a man of integrity, a man aligned, a man who lives in freedom, not secrecy. And you don't have to clean yourself up first to come. You just have to step in. So our sexual integrity support group is found inside the lion's den. And you can start that today with a 30-day free trial. So if you're ready to stop fighting alone and need that extra support, start your 30-day free trial right now at thelionwithin.us. That's thelionwithin.us and step inside the lion's den. So I am uh very interested, Richard, for you personally, habits that you have developed to create space for God's cultivating work in your life. I mean, this uh just kind of taking it back to the book, but now let's bring it back to you, the the mirror standpoint. What works for you? Because some of our guys could really, they may be able to learn and adopt some of the practices that you find effective.

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 34:33

Yeah. So um the first thing I want to say is the my biggest hesitation in writing a book on the fruit of the spirit is that people would say, here's the guy that's mastered the fruit of the spirit. There you go. Like, I want you to know I am just like all of you. I got some of these things that I still struggle with and I'm still working on. And um, I am not yet ready for the pearly gates in terms of I'm ready for the anticipation of that welcome, but in terms of my character is not fully developed yet into Christ-likeness. So that would be my first caveat. My second thing that I would want to say is uh what works for one guy isn't gonna work for another. Like I hate, I'll give you an example. I hate to journal. I just I don't feel God's presence when I journal. I I it's not how I uh choose to, you know, find life in the spirit. But I know, I know people that, man, having that pen and writing something down is super important for them to stay focused and to be able to stay in the flow of God's spirit as they do kind of a quiet time. Two things that that really worked for me. One, uh, I learned this from uh Justin Early, and his name's Justin Whitmull Early. He's out of Richmond, he's a good friend, and he's written a book called The Common Rule. I highly recommend it. And one of the things he talks about in that that was it was like a lightning bolt as soon as I read it, is he's like scripture before phone. Yeah. So most of us wake up in the morning, phone's on the nightstand, first thing you do is wake up and you get on your phone. I mean, I want God to have the first word in my life every day. So uh I always prioritize waking up, let the dogs out, do a couple of things they need to do, and then I make that first cup of coffee, and I just build in enough time to say, I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna listen to God. And I'm gonna listen to God in a couple of ways. One, I'm gonna read a devotional, I'm gonna pray. But this is, and now here's the second uh, and and this can be a high bar challenge for people, but I know you guys can handle it. Yeah. The my biggest holy discontent with the modern spiritual practices of Christians and quiet times is we think that it's saying a prayer, we think it's reading something. God has told us to put his word in our hearts. God has told us that we are to digest and to have the mind of Christ. Well, I don't know how to do that without memorizing scripture. Yeah. And so my challenge to guys, and I I've never had somebody be disappointed if they take this challenge, find one verse, memorize it, and say it morning, noon, and evening for a week. And I promise you, those anchors, if you go all the way back to Israel, this the Shema where we get our great commandment, hear, O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is one, love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Okay, God's people from the very beginning took that literally to love God and that they would say it when they woke up in the morning and they would say it when they went to bed at night. That they had their lives anchored by the love of God by saying it morning and evening. So we need to get more ancient with our quiet times, with our practices to memorize scripture. And here's here's my next challenge for you guys take your favorite chapter of the Bible and memorize it. It may take you some time, but you may have to repeat it over and over and over and over again. But when you take a long form of scripture and put it in the echo chamber of your soul, there is nothing like it in the world. Um one of the last challenges from one of my spiritual mentors and directors, Dallas Willard, was to memorize the Sermon on the Mount. It takes me 17 minutes to say it. It's Matthew 5 through 7. And starting with what he challenged me to do through the years, I probably have 50 chapters of the Bible that are in here and in here. And that doesn't make me better than anybody else. Here's what it does do: I have a working Bible in my mind and heart and soul. I have that resource that other people don't have. Right. And that's because I cultivated it. And again, it doesn't make me any more righteous, it doesn't make me any more loved, uh, none of those things. What it does do is that I have a functional Bible within my psyche any moment that I want to do it. So I'm going for a walk. I can do my quiet time on a walk. Yeah. I can recite uh some glorious passages of scripture to saturate my mind with his goodness. So I realize I'm laying out a high bar. What I wanted to do is lay out that long challenge to be able to say, here's where you start. Let's crawl, then let's walk, and then let's run. The crawl is pick one verse. And for one week, morning, noon, and night, say it every day.

Chris Grainger 40:01

Right. Wow. That's incredible. So so any, I know you you, you know, kind of this is gonna be a spirit-led thing, but any advice on where what would work for guys so far as they want to focus on a chapter? I love the chapter challenge. We haven't had the chapter challenge. We do the verse memorization stuff a lot. Any chapters you think guys would really like that you would challenge them to memorize?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 40:25

Yeah, I mean, so I I've never worried about what chapter a person picks. Here's what I would say: start with what's familiar. So, for example, for a lot of people, the 23rd Psalm might be super familiar to them. Maybe they've never committed it to memory, but maybe it's I'm looking for an early win, right? Because I firmly believe that if you do this, if you take the chapter challenge, if you do that once, I I think you'll get the bug. I think you'll be like, I'm gonna take another chapter. Yeah. And so, you know, start with us. Is it first Corinthians 13? Because it was in your wedding. Is it your Psalm 23? Uh, you know, is it Psalm 40? I think Psalm 46 is a great guy's chapter. You know, God is my refuge and strength, a very present help in times of trouble. Therefore I will not fear, though the earth should change, and the mountain fall in the heart of the sea, though its waters roar and foam, and the earth shakes with its quaking. There's a river whose streams make glad the city of God, and God's in the middle of her, and she will not be moved. God will help her at the break of day. I could keep going, nations in an uproar, kingdoms fall. I mean, I've got that with me anytime. So when when something chaotic comes up, for me, the immediate trigger, habit, is God is my refuge and my strength. A very helpful present in times of trouble. So you've got that. I mean, that resource is with you all the time. And look, God's with you no matter what. You're not gonna get to, there's not gonna get to heaven and there's gonna be a scripture memorization exam. I promise you that. However, um, what an incredible privilege to get to walk with God in this way.

Small Practices Plus Blessing And Next Steps

Chris Grainger 42:13

You you you spurred something here. So we're gonna we're gonna make this happen. We're gonna put this in a challenge out there in our community at the lion as well. And thank you for sharing all that, Richard. I mean, and for maybe the guy who's feeling just spiritually stuck and they just don't know what to do, what would be your encouragement to that guy right now? I mean, because you're talking about memorizing verses and chapters, and you just quoted the whole Psalm 46, and we got some guys who don't know John 3.16 listening, right? So, what would you be your encouragement to that guy?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 42:42

Listen, most of the time when people are discouraged, it's it's because you've tried something and you failed, or you tried something and it didn't work. So, what I would tell you is that in the midst of that disappointment, pay attention to the disappointment. What was the hurt? What didn't work? Do you feel like you let yourself down? What was it that that made you feel let down? So, true story in this. So uh when I was in college, uh, I was a business major and I had this unbelievable management professor. First third of the course in management, he said this you're not worthy to manage somebody else if you can't manage yourself. And so the first third of the course was all what call was called behavioral self-management. And I'd grown up in like lots of organized sports. So I had never worked out on my own. I was always with a team of people, and there was always a coach telling me stuff. Now I'm at college, I'm not at this point in an organized sport, and I wasn't working out consistently. And he said, pick something, pick a goal, and then find out, pay attention, what's working, what's not working. And one of the things I discovered was look, if I'm gonna work out three days a week, it doesn't happen if I don't do it first thing in the morning. So one of the things I discovered about myself was if I wait till the end of the day, if I try to structure, then something's gonna get in the way and I'll have an excuse or I'm gonna get busy, and it's not gonna happen. But the other thing I discovered is this sometimes you get up in the morning and you don't feel like it. You just don't feel like working out. So here was the hack. Go to sleep in clean workout clothes. Because it takes away the decision in the morning of whether or not you're gonna get dressed to go work out or you're gonna get dressed to go eat some breakfast. Takes away that decision. You're already got your workout clothes. And the shame of taking your work off workout clothes off without working out, man, there's just this little motivator in there. It's good guilt that just says, I got to get to the gym because this, because I got my workout clothes on. So put this now in the spiritual realm. Pay attention without me being overly prescriptive, what's not working for you? Yeah. Why is it not working? And just find some little bright spot. What can you do to rearrange, to reorganize your life with God, your rhythms, in order to be able to keep in step with the spirit? And um, I mean, what's going on in your body, what's going on in your mind, what's going on in your heart, pay attention to your calendar and find some little beach head of a practice. And listen, anything can be a spiritual practice if you're willing to give it to God. John Orberg, a friend of mine, he um he says um if you want to train and patience, Intentionally pick the slow lane on the highway. Yeah. And ask God to pray with you for your patients. Or pick this, pick the slow line in the grocery store line and use that as an opportunity to pray for the people around you. We overly spiritualize that like there's only a couple of spiritual practices, like reading your Bible, like praying. Of course, those are good things. But hey, one of the most important spiritual disciplines for me, who kind of make my living by speaking, is to shut up and be silent. So I have regular rhythms in my life where I don't listen to things and I try to be still before God. And for one guy, maybe that's important to you because you're a high octane leader and you're always leading people. Just take five minutes of silence. And if your mind drifts, just say from 1 Samuel 3, speak, Lord, your servant is listening. A little more silence. Mind drifts again, speak, Lord, your servant is listening. So anything can be a spiritual practice. Be creative, be flexible. Try stuff, find what works and give it all to Jesus Christ.

Chris Grainger 46:51

Amen. Amen. Richard, this has been phenomenal. Thank you so much. We love to have a little fun lightning round at the end of our conversations with our guests. So if you want to play, we'll jump into it. So what's a what's a hobby? What's something you enjoy doing for fun?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 47:06

I love golf. So I'm fully addicted to the game of golf and love getting to get out there. Um my doctor said you got to find something that doesn't matter that you can be competitive about, and that's golf for me.

Chris Grainger 47:18

That's golf. There you go. All right. Doesn't matter. That's it. So you've you said you lived all over the country. So but what's your favorite food? What's your go-to when you sit down at the table?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 47:29

Oh, come on. So um I got I gotta give two answers, not one. Okay. Okay. One, when we moved to the New York City metro area, I fell in love with authentic Italian food. Like there's just nothing quite like it. And uh not every part of the country has great Italian food, but oh my goodness, it's amazing. Um, but I'm also from Texas originally. Yeah. So give me like green chicken enchiladas any day. Okay. The gold standard of any Tex Mex restaurant.

Chris Grainger 48:00

There you go. Love it, love it. How about uh um uh favorite music? What's what's your go-to there when you when you when you're working out?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 48:08

So so my family teases me because uh they're they're like dad only listens to three bands. Okay. So uh so that they're the big three, and it's U2, Mumford and Sons, and Coldplay. And they're like, that's just on a loop in his car. He doesn't listen to anything else. So my Spotify recap is really boring at the end of the year.

Chris Grainger 48:31

There you go. So if you could have a superpower, Richard, which superpower would you pick and how would you use it?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 48:38

I had a superpower. Yeah. Um, I would think a superpower that I would love to be able to have would be able to understand my wife better.

Chris Grainger 48:50

That's a touchdown. Let's go.

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 49:02

Give me understanding.

Chris Grainger 49:05

We'll pray for that one for you, brother. Okay, please. How about uh something something uh when you think about God? This if you just could boil it down, what's your favorite thing about him?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 49:19

E. W. Tozer once wrote, What you think about God is the most important thing about you. What comes to your mind when you hear about God is the most substantive thing about faith is the substance of things hoped for and the practice of things not seen. When I think about God, the most important image for me with God is the loving father and the prodigal son who is both running to his wayward child and standing outside the celebration and saying what's keeping you outside the party. God is a loving, patient, generous father, and he cannot wait to welcome you into his arms.

Chris Grainger 50:10

Amen. And let's flip to 180. What's your least favorite thing about the evil one?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 50:16

Deception. I mean, he is a great deceiver. And um Max Lucato says that we get stuck with UFOs, an untruth that leads to a false narrative that leads to an overreaction. You can trace all of uh the just the incredible noise and nonsense in the world to it all starts at first with a lie, an untruth. And so um, the biggest mistake I think people make with the evil one is not deception. It's from Genesis 4, it's Cain and Abel. Sin is crouching at your door. We tend to think of sin as the breaking of rules. Sin is an active force in the world that its ultimate defeat is certain, but it wrecks havoc on our lives until the renewal of all creation.

Chris Grainger 51:12

Thank you for breaking that down. And the last question for you in our round is is what do you hope the listeners remember the most from our conversation today?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 51:21

I hope that your listeners, the the guys listening to this, will say, I want to be intentional about growing in these ways. And I want to surrender and partner with God. He's the gardener, I'm the ground, and I want to bear his fruit.

Chris Grainger 51:39

Yeah. Well, where do you want to send the listeners, Richard, to connect with you, the book, all the wonderful things that you're doing?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 51:46

Yeah, you can go to Richardconwisher.com. I mean, you have to figure out how to spell that. Um, the tricky part is K-A-N-N, W-I-S-C-H-E-R. You can go to go to my website. There's information. I have a book challenge that's on there, uh, reading a book a month uh just to kind of keep us sharp and fresh. And uh there's podcasts available and sermons, and um, I've got two more books in the queue, one per year that are coming up. And uh, so I'm excited about this season. I really want to equip, you know, fellow brothers and sisters for our life of faith.

Chris Grainger 52:21

Amen. Amen. Well, guys, go check that out. Get a copy of it for sure. Richard, anything else you'd like to share today, sir?

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 52:27

Hey, just I think the most important thing for me to be able to say at the end here is that one of the most beautiful things about scripture is the idea of blessing, the X, the idea of benediction. In Latin, that means just good word. And so may the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord be kind and gracious to you. May the Lord look upon you with his favor and give you his peace. That would be my blessing to each and every one of you. Amen. Amen. Thank you for sharing that, sir.

Chris Grainger 52:56

I hope you have a wonderful day.

Dr. Richard Kannwischer 52:58

You got it. Good to be with you, Chris.

Chris Grainger 53:02

All right, guys, I told you you're gonna enjoy that one. So thankful for Richard for coming on. The question of the week is what intentional work is God calling you to begin today? So he's calling us to do something, fellas. The question is, are we gonna take the step of obedience or not? Okay, so go check it, you know, do the work. Again, if you need support, if you need encouragement, join the Lions Den, fellas. The Lions Den is where we're leaning in. We got guys, we have support groups, we have uh meetings that are happening throughout the week. We have engagements, we have forums, we have lots of tools and resources. And guess what? We have a free trial as well for a month. So just go join us, the Lions Den. That's a great way to connect with us at the Lion Within Us. It's also a great way to support the Lion Within Us. And if you enjoy the content, the material that we put out, you know, the via the podcast, or maybe like listen reading the Bible, the Bible reading plans that we have on the Bible app, all those resources, fellas, takes work. It needs support, it needs you, and that's what makes it makes it uh really impactful. So thelionwithin.us is how you get started with all that, okay, guys. Come back on Friday. We're gonna have a member spotlight episode for you again. You know, we know you love those that the stats show us that we should have been doing those uh from the very beginning. So we're very blessed that we're able to start those this year and looking forward to getting more of those conversations in front of you, okay? So, guys, have a great day. Get after. We'll see you Friday. Remember, just to keep unleashing the lion within. Let's just say it out loud. Marriage is one of the greatest gifts that God can give a man, and one of the most consistent places where we can feel unsure of what we're doing. Even the strongest marriages have moments where you look at your wife and you think, you know what? I love you. I'm so committed to you. But right now, I have no idea what I should do next. And that's why we launched something new inside the lion within us community. It's our very first support group, and it's for husbands. And we're calling it committed and occasionally confused. This isn't just a place for men in crisis. Though if you're there, hey, you're welcome. This is for any man who refuses to coast and wants to take his marriage from good to great. So inside you'll find an active chat and a feed, honest conversations, and brotherhood that says, you're not alone. We've been there. Let's bring this to God and grow. And we're also doing a monthly couples night where your wife is invited because we're not letting the world set the agenda for our homes. Now, if you want access to this support group, it's very simple. Go to thelionwithin.us and join the Lion's Den. Okay, that's thelionwithin.us. Start your 30-day free trial of the Lions Den community, and boom, you have instant access to the committed and occasionally confused support group. We'll see you inside the den.