Chris Grainger: 1:43

Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders God intends you to be. I'm your host, Chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, guys, meet episode time. Let's get into it, okay? So the scripture of the week this week is Proverbs 4, verse 23. Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life. So, guys, I took some time to unpack that verse in a spiritual kickoff episode. So you can just back up one in the podcast feed if you haven't listened to it yet. But also, fellas, the spiritual kickoff is so special because we do them Monday through Friday. And it's just simplifying and applying God's word. That's it. And if you need some encouragement throughout the week, the lion within us, we'd love to be that for you. Okay, so again, it's called a daily spiritual kick spiritual kickoff. Go to the lionwithin.us, start your daily SKO experience. And then look, it gives you the daily SKO. If you can't make it live, don't worry about it. Those videos are posted every day for you. We're not going to post them anywhere else, but right there. And also gives you access to our prayer request space. We have a weekly prayer call. So if you need prayer, if you have things that we can be lifting up for you, or if you just want to share them in our forum, that's all part of the daily spiritual kickoff. Okay, guys. So the linewithin.us is where you get that. Now for this episode, we weren't we're we are welcoming back Dr. Kelly Flanagan. Really enjoyed having Kelly back on in the show in 2025. He's got a new book out about being triggered, fellas. And it's such a big deal because uh so many guys that I talk with, including myself, struggle struggle with the things that trigger us in life, right? So Dr. Kelly does a great job of breaking this down and hopefully give us some insight to recognize if we're if if if we're starting to react, what's the what's the trigger, the mechanism behind that? So I hopefully enjoy this conversation with my friend, Dr. Kelly Flanagan. Well, Kelly, welcome back to The Line Within Us. How you been? Uh it's good to be here, Chris. Thank you. Yeah, but I've been well. How about you? Yeah, doing good, doing good. We made it through the uh through Christmas and New Year's, man. So congratulations to both of us. I know, right?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 3:53

Yeah, it's it's it's quite a gauntlet sometimes. But uh yeah, good to be good to be in this new year and and hitting the ground running.

Chris Grainger: 4:00

Uh amen to that. Well, what's what's life been like since we recorded together? We uh we worked together fairly recently, but uh what's been the biggest changes since since we connected?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 4:09

Oh man, biggest changes. Um well, I mean, personally, our uh we have an oldest who's 22. He lives in Chicago and is uh chasing a career in in comedy while uh paying his bills by day, uh working at Trader Joe's. So um, but we have a middle guy who just turned 18 and uh he's been applying for colleges. So um we are in that new phase where we're about to launch our second into into college life for the first time. Um and uh and that's uh you know, he's it's funny because like usually the oldest is the guinea pig. Well, when it comes to this, because our oldest didn't go to college, he's the guinea pig. Gotcha. And we're like, say, it's not so great to be the oldest child, is it? We don't have any idea what we're doing. Um so uh so anyhow, that's personally, I think that's sort of uh a big focus for our family right now. Um, you know, professionally, uh uh we are launching this uh this new book of mine that I've been really working on um informally for probably five or six years, and and really formally for two or three years. And uh, and so it's been it's been receiving most of my attention professionally here for the last few months and um really exciting to start to see as the message gets out there, see the way that it's actually practically impacting people's lives. It's very exciting.

Chris Grainger: 5:26

Oh, that's super exciting. Now I mean I am curious for your son. So what's he want to study?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 5:31

So um he thinks he wants to study business, um, so he's applying to the business schools. Um, we had a great conversation the other day. Uh he was uh managing something in one of his half dozen fantasy sports leagues. Yeah, yeah. And and I had this moment where I was like, I was so tempted to say the thing like, dude, why don't you spend your time doing something that's a little bit more useful or, you know, more valuable? And it hit me that he's so passionate about all of these fantasy sports leagues, and that he's really good at it too. Like he can predict things that are gonna play out in terms of player trades and that sort of thing way before they happen. And it hit me, I'm like, dude, you know, you would be an incredible general manager for an NBA basketball team. There you go. And he just stopped. He's like, oh my gosh, that would be my dream job. Yeah. Um, and so right then and there we started to look up like where what should you do in school if you wanted to one day be the general manager of an NBA basketball team. And the good news is it's business and finance. So yeah. Um, so that's he's on the right track, and who knows where it ends up. But um, just to sort of watch him go, oh yeah, like all that would be a nice tie-in of all my skills and passions. And um uh, you know, there will be another dozen moments like that in his life as he continues to clarify what he wants to do, but that was a fun one to be a part of. That sounds super awesome.

Chris Grainger: 7:03

Definitely be praying for him as he gets started down that journey. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I mean, can this is an exciting time for you. You know, you got this book coming out, the road less triggered. So you said you've been working on this for a few years. So what kind of led up to this point?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 7:19

Yeah, so uh if if I had to trace this book to its origins, I mean it's always hard to do that, um, because every book begins way before it begins, but about a little over five years ago now, um, we were in the middle of COVID, and I was having a hard time living out what I know to be true and what I wrote about in my book Lovable, which we talked about the last time you and I got together. Um that I am fundamentally worthy in God's eyes, that my belonging isn't in question, right? And that I'm I'm here for a reason, uh purpose that matters. Like um what what I discovered is that like 95% of the time I could live into all that truth, and then five percent of the time I would get triggered and start to act like a maniac and not uh live into that truth. And you know, it's COVID. Um early on in COVID, um a bunch of things blew up for me. Um I uh my my business partnership blew up, my my friendship with my business partner blew up. Um kids, you know, they were home, homeschooling, and you know, I call I said they were becoming Zombies. It was it was stressful. Um the the the shutdowns threatened the um the business itself as well as my wife's business. There was a lot of stress. And I was getting triggered left and right by stressful situations and at my kids and at my wife, you know, we were all locked down together. Um well, anyway, somewhere in the middle of that, my wife convinced me finally. She's like, all the public pools are closing for the summer. We finally got to get that above-ground pool we've been talking about. I was like, ugh, okay, if this can restore some sanity, we'll do it. So we get the pool installed. On a Sunday morning, she goes out to the pool to fill it up for the very first time. She hangs the garden hose over the side of the pool and she puts a rock on the garden hose to anchor it there. And the rock wasn't heavy enough. Oh yeah, you can see where this is going. And later that afternoon, I go out to see how much progress we've made on the pool, and the pool is dry, and our backyard is like a lake. And I got really triggered. And I just thought, like, how can I? I got I can't, I gotta get out of here. Like, I'm gonna say and do things that uh, you know, um cause harm. And so I'm like, I'm just gonna blow off steam on a bike ride. So I hop on my bike. Cycling 35 miles per hour on asphalt when you're angry and not really paying attention isn't the smartest thing to do. I went over the handlebars of my bike, broke my uh left collarbone in two places. Um, that collarbone never properly healed. It's called a um a fibrous tissue non-union fracture. Like basically, I've got two hinges in that collarbone where before I didn't didn't have any. And I got to the end of that year, and because of how what a long recovery that was, a painful recovery, like I got real out of shape. And so I'm sitting there on New Year's Eve and I'm like, I gotta get my body in shape, right? Like this, my my New Year's resolution is gonna have to be something with fitness and diet. And um, I'm literally thinking through like different fitness plans for the year when I come across a quote. And the quote is uh from a guy named Michael Singer. Uh, and the quote is uh, do not let anything in life be important enough that you're willing to close your heart over it. And it like that quote hit me harder than that asphalt road hit me, like, oh man, like my physical heart isn't in as bad a shape as my emotional heart, right? And as my spiritual heart. It my heart is closing over and over and over again to my people. I'm getting triggered, my heart closes, and I start to say and do things, like Paul said, right? We do things we don't want to do and we don't do things we do want to do. Like, and and so it was like, oh my gosh, that's my New Year's resolution. So right there, I wrote out my New Year's resolution going into 21. Just moment to moment, I will notice my heart closing and try to open it back up. Moment to moment, I will notice my heart closing and try to open it back up. I was wise enough to put the word try in even on day one. Right. And I I quickly discovered it was exceptionally difficult to do to in those triggering moments to keep my heart open. So I started like scouring. I'm in a critical psychologist, so I started scouring the psychological literature and you know, faith literature, and I couldn't find anything that could explain how to actually do that. Even Singer's book didn't explain it. He he just he he exhorted us to it, but didn't explain how to do it. So I was like, if I'm gonna come up with a curriculum, if I'm gonna have a curriculum for open-heartedness, I'm gonna have to come up with it. Um and so that's what I spent the next several years doing, um, was coming up with a process that can help anyone keep their heart open in those triggering moments. Um it's a nine-step process, and and I lay it out in this book, The Road Less Triggered. Um, and uh, it's not the road not triggered, right? Right. Um it's it we're not even from for some sort of unrealistic perfection, but it's the road less triggered. It's it's recognizing that the ceiling on how together we can be with our people is how triggered we get with our people, and and removing that ceiling as much as we can so we can grow closer and closer together with each other.

Chris Grainger: 12:42

I'm really curious from your standpoint. I mean, you you spent so much time researching this, because I think I read it pretty I believe I was I'm right in this that conflict doesn't break down between people but within people. That's right. You said that. So what what's happening? Like help help me understand what's happening inside me when when Chris flies off the handle, which you know, my wife would say never never happens, but you know, I what what happens in that moment when we get triggered?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 13:06

Oh man. So um, yes, that that concept that communication doesn't break down between people but within people is an essential component of of the book. You know, I'm so I'm a clinical psychologist. Uh my specialty at Penn State when I got my doctorate was in communication and conflict resolution, right? Um I entered into the world to train people how to use communication tools to grow closer. Um, but early on in my professional career, I realized that um a couple of things. I realized the communication tools were helping a little, but only a little bit. Um, and that was for two reasons. Number one, most of the people I was working with already had excellent communication skills. They were doctors and attorneys and teachers and business owners and stay-at-home parents of busy households, like they they communicated well, but there were these moments, right, where all of a sudden they'd quit using their communication tools. Um, and so the question for me became like, what's happening in these moments uh when we close our communication toolbox, right, right when we need it the most. Um and and that's another way of saying that's part of what's happening in in that moment is we all have an inherent, innate connective capacity. Um, but we shut down and we close off and we lose access to our connective skills, our communication skills in these moments where we get triggered. Um so a number of things are happening in that moment. Number one, your nervous system is is firing up. Um your nervous system is telling you that you are in danger, um, existential mortal danger, um, and you need to protect yourself. So you're switching from connection mode into protection mode. Um, and what's interesting is that we often we're trying to communicate and we're trying to like solve problems with our people and we're trying to be together, but we're in protection mode while we're doing it. And that has worked literally zero times in the history of humanity. If you're in protection mode, you're not going to be able to connect. Um, so our nervous system is flipping into protection mode. Our we uh in in The Road Less Triggered, I lay out that there are basically nine core defensive urges that we have in that moment. So we're starting to react rather than respond with and we're reacting with our favored, our preferred defensive urges. We're gonna get defensive um in one way or another. Whether, and and you know, um I often say defensiveness can look like silence or violence, right? It can be angry and aggressive or it could be quiet and withdrawn. Um and then we we make the ultimate mistake that most of us make is we try to connect with others in order to calm ourselves down rather than calming ourselves down in order to connect with others. Um and so the process really starts with um beginning to take ownership of how essential it is to make sure that we've regulated our nervous system before we try to relate with our people.

Chris Grainger: 16:12

Okay. But that protection mode, it's almost sounds like that's our natural default. That's the state that we that we just go to out out the gate. I mean, uh, maybe that's just God's design to some degree, right?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 16:24

It is absolutely I mean, thank you for saying that. It is absolutely God's design. Um, in fact, in the book, I talk about how if we don't have that capacity, we're not here, right? We don't survive to this point. Like it's that reaction which is responsible for us surviving the tiger on the Serengeti. Right, right. Or like you better have that. If you're walking through a dark parking garage at night and you hear these step footsteps coming up behind you real quickly in the dark, you better have that reaction. That's right. Right. Um, your heart better close. Um the interesting thing though, is that we were that God gave us a nervous system to keep us alive, right? Essentially. Um and so what's interesting, and I I I enjoy this moment oftentimes in working with a couple, um, where uh say wife says, This is the classic example, wife says you left the toilet seat up again, right? And husband gets triggered, his nervous system fires off. And he says, you know, it's never good enough for you, and so on, and so like uh it's never gonna be enough. You always pick, and um, and to your point, we've been given a nervous system, but our nervous system theoretically is only supposed to activate if we are in mortal danger, right? And so it's often a very powerful moment when I'm working with couples for like a husband in this case to realize, oh wait, all she did was say that the toilet seat was left up again. And I started to act like I was about to be eaten by a tiger on the Serengeti. These these responses are not proportionate to to the offense, right? Um, and so to start to slow down around that moment and ask the question of, wow, yeah, why is my nervous system acting like I'm in mortal danger when if I really slow down, calm it down and take a look around, I'm actually relatively safe. Right, right.

Chris Grainger: 18:20

Love it, love it. Well, guys, we're gonna take our first break with Dr. Kelly. We'll be right back. Let's just say it out loud. Marriage is one of the greatest gifts that God can give a man, and one of the most consistent places where we can feel unsure of what we're doing. Even the strongest marriages have moments where you look at your wife and you think, you know what? I love you. I'm so committed to you. But right now I have no idea what I should do next. And that's why we launched something new inside the lion within us community. It's our very first support group, and it's for husbands, and we're calling it committed and occasionally confused. This isn't just a place for men in crisis. So if you're there, hey, you're welcome. This is for any man who refuses to coast and wants to take his marriage from good to great. So inside, you'll find an active chat and a feed, an honest conversations, and brotherhood that says, hey, you're not alone, we've been there. Let's bring this to God and grow. And we're also doing a monthly couples night where your wife is invited because we're not letting the world set the agenda for our homes. Now, if you want access to this support group, it's very simple. Go to thelionwithin.us and join the Lions Den. Okay, that's the LionWithin.us. Start your 30-day free trial of the Lions Den community, and boom, you have instant access to the committed and occasionally confused support group. We'll see you inside the den. So I am super curious, you know, Kelly, when you're talking about this, you brought up the example at the toilet seat with your wife. We got lots of guys out here listening to the lion who are married. You know, and we to the point we started, since you and I work together, we did start a husband support group within the lion. And that's where very cool. Yeah, it's really cool. Guys are coming together, we have a couples night once a month and things like that. But in your book, you talk about there's like a a turning point where we can turn conflict into connection with a single choice we get to make. So I want you to talk about that because if you can, because that could be lots of guys with their marriages, the even ones trying to steal, kill, and destroy itself. There's any tips you can help us guys who are usually a little bit slow on the uptake. We call it committed and slightly confused. Uh we call our husband support group. So any any tips you can give us there, uh that would be great.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 20:43

Yeah, it's it's sort of a provocative subtitle, right? Um, turning conflict into connection with a single choice. Um the single choice ultimately is um the choice to keep your heart open. And and the real shock to me five years ago, four years ago, three years ago, as I'm learning this, um, is that what it feels like, it feels like when someone does A, B, and C, your heart automatically closes. And if they would just do X, Y, and Z, then your heart would automatically open. Right. Right. But the reality is we actually have a window of choice where we are choosing to allow our hearts to close, or we're choosing to allow our hearts to open. Um, this was this was first sort of brought home to me. I was co-facilitating a couples retreat and the co-facilitator asked the couples to turn their chairs so they were facing each other and knees touching, eyes locked, and she said, uh, okay, on the count of three, do exactly what I say. One, two, three, close your hearts to each other. And then she just read them a long list of reasons to go into protection mode, right? Like all the times you've been hurt, and they're trying, you know, and uh, and then she let them sit in that for a little bit and she goes, one, two, three, open your hearts to each other. And then she gave them a long list of reasons to go into protection mode, right? Like all the wonderful reasons they got married in the first place and all the things that wouldn't be possible without the other person and so on. And she goes, one, two, three, close your hearts to each other. And she alternated like that for about 10 minutes, uh-huh, brought them back together, had them talk about what it felt like in their bodies when they were in each of those two modes. Um, and then she said, But what I really want you to take away from this is that you had a choice, right? You had a choice, you were choosing, and in in the heat of the moment, that moment of choice passes so unconsciously and quickly that we don't know that we've got it. And so a big part of this book is starting to restore your awareness of that window where you're making a choice and then expand that window a little bit so that you can make a more conscious choice. Um, to start to realize that when my heart closes, it never improves the situation. My heart needs to close if I'm in mortal danger. Otherwise, it never improves the relational situation I'm in. Um, one of the first pieces of pushback I always get from folks and in entrepreneurial men in particular, they're like, Yes, like some things are just wrong. Are you telling me I should become a doormat? Are you telling me that I should just let people walk all over me? Are you telling me, you know, like there has to be consequences for things. There has to be. And in my response to that is I've watched it play out thousands of times now. And this is what I can tell you definitively an open heart doesn't make you weaker, it makes you wiser. An open heart doesn't make you weaker, it makes you wiser. You will overcome. Always respond more wisely when your heart is open than when your heart is closed. And sometimes wisdom means you don't say anything. And sometimes wisdom means you speak up in a more assertive way than you've ever spoken up before. Right. But you'll do it wisely, you'll do it lovingly, you'll do it tenderly, you'll do it in a way that respects and honors the dignity of both people involved. Right. Right. And uh, and so that's the choice we're aiming for, to restore your sense of choice to keep your heart open so you can show up to these key relational moments with wisdom. You know, I I felt like that's what happened with my son the other day. Um, and I'm gonna get a little emotional thinking about how if I I'm watching him on his phone, right, and I'm thinking like, oh my gosh, you've got so much to do in your life to make this transition in an effective way. You know, you should be thinking about your honors essay for the University of Iowa, or you should be like cleaning your room, you know, and like my heart is starting to close, and I can feel it in my chest, right? And and so what I want to do, whenever your heart starts to close, you want to see his control in one way or another. That's that's protection mode to get into control. So what I want to do is to try to control him by telling him what he should be doing and shouldn't be doing in that moment.

Chris Grainger: 25:00

Right.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 25:01

Instead, I open my heart up, and what do I notice? He really loves this the statistics and the data and the predictive capacities that go into the fantasy stuff. Well, hey, what if that's what if that's what you do? Um and so it wasn't opening my heart wasn't staying quiet in that moment. It was actually showing up in a much more powerful and influential way than if I had um kept my heart closed. I mean, think about the two paths that he and I go on from there. Right, right. Yeah. Um we we start to butt heads in a battle. He starts to feel ashamed, like he's not enough, like he's not doing enough. Um, I start to be controlling and doing that dad thing, and he thinks I can't wait to get the heck out of this house because dad is always controlling me and telling me what to do. Versus now we're sort of partnering and envisioning and collaborating around what his future could look like. So um, so my encouragement to guys out there is um this this phrase opening your heart, it might sound soft, it might sound easy, um, it might sound passive. It's exactly the opposite of all those things.

Chris Grainger: 26:05

I mean, that was gonna be my question because for guys, when you say opening your heart, I mean that's that's I'm not sure if that's if if some guys there's probably not real clear at all. Like, okay, what is this? Yeah, what's he telling me here? But I mean, I for me, I guess it's I guess personally, it's like when I just put a wall up. Yeah. Because I you say you either lash out or you or or you kind of just pull back. I I typically pull back, you know. I try I try try not to lash out as much as I used to. My younger days, I'll exactly I l I lash out a lot more. But with the more I found like the more birthdays I have, the the calmer I get, and then I just pull back.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 26:40

And I don't know if that's what you see with guys or not, but well, uh we talk about creating, yes, I I can relate to that myself. Um it it believe it or not, it helps every time the T level drops another 1% every year. It's a little bit easier to not react. Right. Um but um but what you're doing, so that that moment of disengagement, it can serve a lot of functions, but let's say it can serve one of two. If it's serving a protective function, then what it what it might be doing is trying to punish the other person with silence. Um, you know, it could be like uh a pause in which you go away and you continue to do shadow box in your head, you know, think about all the things you you want to say, but you're not going to. Um your heart can actually continue to close more in that silence. Or you can go away in order to open your heart and explore the possibility of whether or not you stay silent or whether or not you re-engage the interaction from a different perspective, right? So there's a there's uh the the disengagement can be an active endeavor. I I uh um I had an afternoon early on in this journey for me, where I uh I I was really proud of how I've shown up as a husband and a father and how I was really pouring into the family and not letting work sort of obsess me. And uh I was really proud of myself and I was sitting at the kitchen counter one night as my wife was making dinner and I said, Hey, can I ask you a question about my upcoming book launch? This was the last book. And um, and uh she goes, Do you ever stop working? And boom, like felt my heart close. Like, wait a second, I should be getting recognized for what a great job I'm doing, not criticized. And I told her, I said, Hey, I'm uh I I'm triggered, my heart's closing. I'm gonna go take a couple breaths in the other room and come back when I can open up my heart and show up as wisely as possible, right? Took me 48 hours that time. I thought I'd be back before the green beans were done. It took me 48 hours to relax and get my heart open. Um, but during that time, I texted her a couple times, said you know, still not punishing you. This isn't the silence. I'm at this is an active silence. I'm I'm working to get my heart open so I can engage with what you said. Um, and so uh so yes, that is I want to be, I want to be clear about that. Um, that we want to be less aggressively reactive, but then we also want to be intentional about our disengagement and how we're using using that time. Um and and I think for guys, I think the way this will really land when I say opening your heart is um has to do with the concept of control versus connection. Um I was on a um I was on my own coaching call, because he's a spiritual director, so spiritual direction call. Um, and this was two years ago when I was trying to get my son to fall in love with the University of Illinois, so he would go there, my alma mater, and I could go, you know, relive my glory days with him a little bit. And uh took I I was taking him to a big tailgate weekend, and he wanted nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with it. And uh I was so angry at him um and that he was being ungrateful. I'd invested a lot of money in making this happen, and we were hours from leaving, and I could just he just didn't even want to go. And uh and my spiritual director said, Kelly, you can either connect or you can have an agenda, but you can't do both. And I said, say more about that. He said, Well, your agenda is to get him to fall in love with the University of Illinois. Um, if that's your agenda for the weekend, that's not real connection. That's control. That's control. Um and so when we talk about opening our heart, we're talking about giving up control over what happens in order to be fully present to what is. Um it turns out when we're fully present to what is, instead of trying to control some sort of future outcome, we actually show up really much more wisely, and our power to influence the situation actually increases. But that's not why we're doing it, right? Um, we're not, you know, we're not like, okay, I'm gonna open my heart so that it'll go better. No, that's just a closed heart and clever disguise. I'm gonna open my heart, be present to this, engage with this wisely, and then we'll see how it turns out. But the chances are you'll have influenced it more powerfully than if you've closed your heart.

Chris Grainger: 31:15

But it sounds like too, there's there's a high level of intentionality that has to be done here. So that takes a little level of wisdom and discernment. And for the Christian man, I mean that's who we're trying to impact here. Does this look more like, all right, I gotta purposely go spend some time in prayer, submitting this to the Holy Spirit, asking for, all right, Lord, help, because obviously I can't figure this out on my own. I mean, what does that practically look like? Is it or is that it? Just spent more time with prayer.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 31:42

Oh, I such a great question. I love my conversations with you, Chris. Um, well, fortunately, like so many things, I uh, you know, the first thing that comes to mind is that Jesus has given us a very clear image of what it looks like. It's the Garden of Gethsemane, right? Yeah, right, right. Jesus is literally closing his heart to what comes next. I don't want to do this. Any anything else, please? Can can we come up with any other plan for this? And his night his his his evening of prayer in the garden is about opening his heart to what the Father has in store for him.

Chris Grainger: 32:15

Yeah.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 32:16

Your your will be done. Um and and while it is a more difficult path sometimes, we also get to see in that outcome how it's a more powerful path as well. Um so yeah, no, I do think to take that time and space away to be in conversation with God and to to recognize that um opening your heart is about learning how to participate in God's plan for your life. When you close your heart, you're focused on what's my plan? What's what are the outcomes I want to control?

Chris Grainger: 32:52

Right.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 32:52

And when you open when you open your heart, you're sort of falling into step with God's plan.

Chris Grainger: 32:57

Love, love how you put that. Guys, we're gonna take our next break. We'll be right back. If you're tired of going at it alone, we understand every man needs wise counsel, but finding it can be quite the challenge. That's why we build our leadership masterminds. This isn't just more content, guys. It's real discipleship with a consistent rhythm, small cohorts of no more than seven guys, honest hot seat sessions, and biblical counsel that turns good intentions into action. You'll get accountability, clarity, and a circle of brothers who will challenge you and cheer you on. We open up new options regularly so there's room to find the right fit. It's not always easy, but it is worth it. First step is simple. Take the leadership mastermind assessment. No pressure, no hype, just thoughtful questions to help you see where you are, where God is leading you, and whether this is a good option for your next step. Hey, if it's a fit, we're gonna follow up with details. And if it's not, we'll point you to resources to help you keep growing. Either way, you move forward. So if you're ready to take the assessment, head over to the lionwithin.us slash mastermind. So that's thelionwithin.us slash mastermind to get moving today. So, Dr. Kelly, one thing I'm curious very curious on your insight on is we got a lot of guys that are coming to the lion. God's been doing a great thing with us over the last couple months, really. It's been incredible. But I hear more and more guys that I'm talking with, they're coming with loneliness. They're feeling isolated. And I'm just curious, where is that tie of loneliness? How does that start you know raising its head with with conflict in our life? Like, is that are they are they coupled together somehow? I'm just curious your take on that.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 35:02

Oh wow, that's such a great question. So um so far in our conversation today, Chris, we focused mostly on part one of the process, which is get calm. Um, part two of the process is get free, and then part three is get connected. Um the peaceful pivot process, is a it's a bit of a reversal of our natural instincts, which is to get connected first. Um and and here it's like no, your capacity to get connected is the fruit of first getting calm and then getting free of some of the emotional patterns in you that are underpinning your triggered reaction, right? And I think for most people, um men included, when you create the space to really get familiar with what's going on inside of you uh when you're getting triggered, if you trace that all the way to the center of it, right? All the way to the core of it, um, I think a lot of us find loneliness at the end of that path. Yeah, our triggered moments are our reactive ways of trying to manage, prevent, mitigate uh against loneliness. Um and this is I I always tell married couples this. I said, see, your problem isn't that you feel lonely in your marriage, your problem is that you think your marriage is responsible for your loneliness. Um but what really happens is um as children, uh I call it the uh the the sort of ordinary trauma at the at the center of at the beginning of every human life is this discovery as a child that, oh, we're all separate. And what you want differs with what I want. And sometimes you don't want to be with me when I want to be with you, and sometimes you can't be with me when I want to be with you. You know, children are so wired for connection and closeness and unity that it is a real shock as a child to encounter the reality of separateness and the feeling of loneliness that comes with it. I call that the ordinary trauma of every life. And and what happens then is for most children around the age of six, when they develop the cognitive capacity to go, this loneliness thing doesn't feel very good. And I want to fix it. I don't want to feel lonely anymore. And uh, and some some children have an internal locus of control and they try to start to solve their loneliness by um fixing themselves. And then some kids have an external locus of control and they try to start trying to solve their loneliness by fixing other people. But either way, most of you know, what I call most most per what uh most of what we call personality is really our attempt to solve our early childhood loneliness. And and so then we feel like we've mostly solved it through some accomplishments and friendships and achievements. And then we meet this person who we're gonna get married to, and now this is the crowning achievement of our loneliness project, right? Someone who's saying, I want to be with you for the rest of my life. Can I be more be more validating? I'm never gonna be lonely again. And and sometimes it works for a couple of years. We call those the newlywed years, and then loneliness starts to creep back up in us. Um, and now trying to solve that loneliness is about trying to fix the person that you're with because they're no longer taking it away. Um, and so I I do believe a reckoning with our loneliness and the loneliness throughout our story is an important part of understanding why we're getting triggered in those moments. Right.

Chris Grainger: 38:46

Okay. Well, and for guys also to that point, uh that that understanding, um, I know I found and I've had conversations with my with my wife, where I feel like the same song plays over and over and over. It's the same fight, it's the same argument, it's the same thing that keeps happening. So I don't know if that's just uh a pattern or something like that, but I'm sure you you understand that a lot better than I do. So I mean, if you're starting to help someone, it just feels like they just keep beating that same drum. What's the first question that you're going to to help them get to the root versus the the you know what they perceive as just behavior?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 39:20

Uh such a good question. Yeah, you're no, you're right. Like most couples have one, maybe two conflicts they just keep having over and over again, maybe in different contexts or the the great theologian Garth Brooks says you bury the hatchet, but you leave the handle sticking out.

Chris Grainger: 39:36

That's the one that great theologian. That's right.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 39:40

Um yeah, that's that is it's a it's it's well said. Um I actually have uh when when people order the book um and then they they get to the end of the book, there's a QR code they can scan to go to a resources page where they can download um worksheets and exercises related to the book. And one of those worksheets is called the closed-hearted conflict cycle template. Um and the idea is basically I want you to map out the one conflict that plays itself out over and over again. Um when when this happens, what do you do? And then when you do that, what do they do? And then when they do that, what do you do? And, you know, um, and uh so when I'm working with couples, uh one of the first questions is give me an example of like that just sort of is representative of your triggered moments. What's the thing that happens and who reacts first? And we just start from there. What I've learned as a couples um therapist and couples coach is 95% of what I was talking with couples about was a total waste of time for years. I'm also say a hundred percent of personal and relational growth happens around our triggered moments. Um that's that's where it's all gonna change. Uh and the the wild thing is that I'll often use this metaphor is like your triggered moments in your relationship are like an X on a treasure map. And if we just find that X and we start to dig into that X, there's treasure buried beneath that. It's your personal and relational growth. But unfortunately, we treat our triggered moments like it's like coming to an X on a treasure map and like brushing it out of the sand or picking up the rocks and throwing, uh we don't want this. We don't want to look at this, we want to go around it, we never want to discover this again. And uh, and so when people are working on this, uh when they start to really see that, oh, that X is where all the growth is gonna happen. Uh, let's start digging into that. So, yes, um, I want to help a couple identify that one triggered moment, the one conflict cycle that that ensues from that. And we're we're gonna spend 95% of our time working just on that. And that's where all the growth is gonna happen.

Chris Grainger: 42:02

Right, right. Love that. Well, thank you for for unthanking that. And guys, there is hope after all, right?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 42:08

Well, and yeah, and personally, for me, that is I pour 110% of my my my effort and and it and and energy into making my wife happy and caring for my family. And then she says something that makes me feel like it's still not enough, and we are off to the races, man. Right. And if I don't take responsibility for that moment where I take off to the races, like the same old thing's gonna happen.

Chris Grainger: 42:33

That's right. Now, I know there's guys listening and they're thinking this right here. So I want you to just of course correct us, okay? This is the guy who's thinking, all right, Dr. Kelly, I'm not triggered. I'm just right. Oh yeah. Wait till that guy. Um oh boy, that's such a good uh a couple things.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 42:59

Um number one, you can be right with a closed heart and you can be right with an open heart. Um and so a lot of times I won't even get into debating if you're right or wrong, right? Um in fact, one of the things that I've learned is that most of us are only making decisions based upon a single dimension. So if you think of like an arrow running in two directions on a horizontal axis, um, and on the right side of the arrow is the word right, and on the left side of the arrow arrow is the word wrong. Most of us are just thinking on this single plane. Am I right or am I wrong? Are they right or are they wrong? Every time I'll throw a vertical arrow over that, creating a per, you know, sort of a quadrant intersection. And on that vertical arrow at the top, it'll say open hearted, the bottom it'll say closed-hearted, right? So the question isn't am I right or am I wrong? It's am I right with an open heart or am I wrong with an open heart? Right? Now we've got a new space we're entering into in terms of relational and and personal depth. Um and so, yeah, so my answer to that would be cool, let's just assume you're right. What's it look like to be right with an open heart? What's it look like to be right with a closed heart? Um, having said that, in chapter two of the book, where we get into like what our our closed-hearted defenses are, um one of the nine defenses, I call it mentoring, mentoring mode. Um, it's basically I'm right, you're wrong, and I gotta fix you. Um and it's a it's a relatively subtle form of a closed heart. And we have to be very careful that that's that's not what we're doing. But sometimes, sometimes we're objectively right. You want to hear a terrible thing I do in my marriage? Let's go. Um, terrible thing. When I'm convinced I'm right and that my wife is wrong, and she's sitting there in front of me and I'm triggered, I'll look up at heaven and I'll go bookmark because I I I I it's this terrible thing where I'm like, when we get to heaven, we're gonna be able to look at all the bookmarks and you'll see that I was right. Like we'd be able to see it from a heavenly perspective. And of course, what does it do to my wife? It drives her absolutely insane, right? Right, right. Um and uh and that's being and let's say half the time at least, I'm right, right? That's being right with a closed heart. That is, I want to win more than I even want to be connected with you. Um and uh and so yeah, I think that's the that's the that's the shortest response to that gentleman who is also me.

Chris Grainger: 45:35

That's right. Well, I'm sure you wrote the book for everybody, you know, in my men and Women, but it just really sounds the more and more guys I talk to. I sound like this is gonna be really resonating with guys. I'm excited for it.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 45:48

You know, I um my first book, Lovable. When I wrote Lovable, it uh um I'd had a bunch of you know, blog posts go viral in social media. I'd been on the Today show. Um, and just in terms of the audience that I had attracted in social media, my audience was primarily uh women about ages 25 to 55. Um and lovable was sort of um it was it was interesting because it was it was theoretically written for that audience. Um but what happened was I still wrote in my own voice. I wrote in the voice of a father, right? And what I discovered after Lovable was that even though it was a book called Lovable and it was packaged with a big red heart on the front, um, I discovered that big-hearted um uh men of faith and entrepreneurial men really res resonated with the fatherly voice that I'd written in. And so those are the communities that have really started to embrace uh what I do. And so this book was certainly written with those men in mind. Um, but specifically, and this is where I think the magic of the book is, so many books that are written for men are completely inaccessible to their wives and to their partners and to their daughters and to, you know, uh and to their friend, female friends. Um, I wanted to write a book that men would hand to their wives and say, let's read this together. And the wives would resonate it with just with it just as much as they do, so that they can actually like start to engage in it together. Um, because I gotta tell you, man, like it's powerful. You you have a power to influence the people around you simply by opening your heart. But when your partner starts to engage in that project with you too, and and realizes that they want the the synergy of that is so exciting. So um, so yeah, that is that's sort of the context of who this book is for. It's it's for both, but um, I definitely every every big-hearted man of faith out there, I wrote them with them in mind.

Chris Grainger: 47:48

All right. Well, we're super excited for it. And I know we had our our lightning round last time, but I mixed it up this time. I still want to have a fun lightning round at the end. But if you're willing to play, we'll jump in. Let's do it. I'll play. We'll start, we'll start easy. So uh uh let's see. Are you uh uh our early morning or or night owl?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 48:05

Night owl until our third kid, and then I was forced to turn into an early morning guy. So I'm a I'm a I'm a 5 30 a.m.

Chris Grainger: 48:13

guy.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 48:13

All right. Text or phone calls? Text.

Chris Grainger: 48:17

Um for sure. Yeah. You're yeah, are you planning it or are you winging it? It meaning anything. Do you want to plan stuff or or just wing it?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 48:27

I'm planning, I'm planning. I'm a control freak, man. Uh I'm planning it.

Chris Grainger: 48:32

So if you had a free uninterrupted today to tomorrow, what would you do?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 48:39

Uh I wake up, I would drink my coffee more slowly than usual, sit on the couch with my dog next to me. He's 13, he's not gonna be with us for much longer, and uh pet him and enjoy that. Um, and then I would I would have to do something productive even on a day off. Like uh I I gotta I gotta produce a little. I've learned that on vacations. Give me an hour of just producing something, and then I can just enjoy the rest of the day.

Chris Grainger: 49:05

That's a good too. Okay, I thought I was crazy, but that is that's that I have found that to be true.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 49:10

Oh, dude, I I wake up early, I go get an hour's worth of something done that just feels you know productive, and then I can be with the family the rest of the day. And then um I used to yeah, I used to fight that, isn't that crazy? And now I'm like, yeah, no, that's just who I am. Um and then uh I might call up my brother and see if he wants to go. It's a it's it's you know wintery still here uh up in northern north central Illinois, see if he wants to go hit the golf simulator for a couple hours. There you go. Um, and then uh yeah, enjoy dinner with my family.

Chris Grainger: 49:36

That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, what about uh have you had any habits that keep you steady? We always show love just to see like learn from from experts like you, anything that's keeping you steady.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 49:50

Uh I wake up, the first thing I do every morning um is I have three emails sitting in my email inbox. They're from Richard Rohr, Frederick Beakner, and Henry Nowen. So I got the Catholics and the Protestants all covered. Um I consider them my three sort of spiritual mentors. Um I start every morning getting my head straight, my heart straight with them, um, and uh and in prayer and meditation. Um so that's that's important. When I'm tempted to rush through that, um, I I have to be careful because something's up. Um and then um I mean for me, uh exercise is an is a really uh uh important uh piece of the routine. Uh family dinners uh are non-negotiables. Uh and uh yeah, there's the rhythm rhythm of my day. You just heard it.

Chris Grainger: 50:44

Yeah, I love it. I love it. If you start if you're if you're thinking about the the next season in front of you, Dr. Kelly, what's one word that you hope to define it?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 50:55

Uh the word I've chosen for 2026 is surrender. Surrender. Okay. Surrender. Yeah. Um it's I told you I'm a control freak. Um I'm also I also say I'm a control sneak. I got lots of sneaky ways of trying to feel in control. Um what I want to what I want to do is control my inputs and surrender to my outcomes. There you go. Um and uh and with a book launch coming up, this is my fourth book I'm launching. Um that we're in that we're in the middle of this book launch now. Um, the first three I got completely out of balance, um, trying to control outcomes. Um and this time I want to make sure that I do everything I can, obviously, to make sure. Because I I I honestly believe this book is gonna have a huge impact on a lot of people. Um, I believe by the end of the introduction that will be the case. People will be looking at life through a new lens. Um, but I have to surrender ultimately to how successful that endeavor is, or I will get out of balance. And uh my son graduates from high school this spring. I don't want to miss that because I'm out of whack, you know?

Chris Grainger: 51:58

So surrender. Amen. Love it, love it. So where do where can folks go? You know, the title, where do you want to send them to get copies and all that fun stuff?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 52:06

Yeah, yeah. Um, you can go to roadless triggered.com. Uh if that's too long, you can also just go to less triggered.com. They'll both take you to the same place. Okay. Um, and uh yeah, the um you can go ahead there today uh and and for the first week of the book, the book uh came out yesterday. Uh and for the rest of the week, if you go there by Friday at the end of business, um by buying one copy, you're gonna get access to $348 worth of bonuses, um, which include a really cool masterclass I recorded with one of my good friends about the book and the process, uh, as well as a six-month membership to my online tribe, um, which is a way to, if you if you really like the book and you want to actually like practice the principles of the book in community, uh, gives you direct access access to me on a monthly Zoom call and other good things. An incredible community we have uh called the Less Triggered Tribe. Um so I would recommend go get your copy today um and get those bonuses, and uh we'll see you in the Less Triggered Tribe.

Chris Grainger: 53:12

That's awesome. Well, Dr. Kelly, it's been great. I always love connecting with you. Anything else you'd like to share today?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 53:18

Uh no. Uh I I would just uh exhort your your listeners to consider the possibility of adopting my old uh resolution moment to moment. I'll notice my heart closing and try to open it back up and uh just see if that uh can become your prayer the way it's become become essentially the prayer for my whole life. Um and uh and watch what it watch the work that God does in you through that.

Chris Grainger: 53:42

Man, amen. Well, it's been an honor again. Thank you for for coming back on. It's always fun to work with you. Great to be with you, Chris. Thanks for having me. All right, guys, I told you that was gonna be a fun one, so so thankful for Dr. Kelly for coming back on the show. The question of the week this week is what's been flowing out when you're under pressure. So when you're under pressure, something's gonna come out. Maybe it's joy, maybe it's peace, maybe it's patience. If that is, God bless your ministry. But sometimes it's anger, sometimes it's frustration, right? Understanding the source is what Dr. Kelly was talking about right here today. And again, if you need somewhere to go, unpack this, if you need somewhere to go just to be heard, just to re so you're not feel like you're you're doing life alone. The Lion Within us, fellas, is what it's all about. If you're joining the podcast, if you're listening, if you're reading the Bible plans on the Bible app and you're doing all this consumption, that's fine. But at some point, we'd like to come alongside and walk with you. So thelionwithin.us is how you get started with us today. Go check it out. Join just start your 30-day free travel community. Just go start that right now. Maybe you're looking for a a small board uh board of advisors, that's our mastermind. And you just don't have that that trusted group of brothers that you can really bring things to to that you're struggling with in life. Put in an application for our leadership mastermind. We'll see if it if it aligns to where you're at and where you're trying to go. Okay, so all these things, fellas, the lionwithin.us. Give us a rating of review if you don't mind. That would be awesome. And just support the show. Like if you just want to just come alongside as a monthly supporter, that would be awesome. The LionWithin.us slash donate. You can connect with us there, all right? All right, guys, have a great day. Look forward to our Friday episode. We're gonna have our member spotlights like we have each and every week. So I know you guys are gonna be excited by this one. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening, for hanging out with us again. You can always reach us at the lionwithin.us. All right, have a great day. Get after it. Keep unleashing the Lion Within. Let's just say it out loud. Marriage is one of the greatest gifts that God can give a man. And one of the most consistent places where we can feel unsure of what we're doing. Even the strongest marriages have moments where you look at your wife and you think, you know what? I love you. I'm so committed to you. But right now, I have no idea what I should do next. And that's why we launched something new inside the Lion Within Us community. It's our very first support group. And it's for husbands. And we're calling it committed and occasionally confused. This isn't just a place for men in crisis. So if you're there, hey, you're welcome. This is for any man who refuses to coast and wants to take his marriage from good to great. So inside, you'll find an active chat and a feed and honest conversations and brotherhood that says, You're not alone. We've been there. Let's bring this to God and grow. And we're also doing a monthly couples night where your wife is invited because we're not letting the world set the agenda for our homes. Now, if you want access to this support group, it's very simple. Go to thelionwithin.us and join the Lions Den. Okay, that's thelionwithin.us. Start your 30 day free trial of the Lions Den community, and boom, you have instant access to the committed and occasionally confused support group. We'll see you inside the den.