Chris Grainger: 1:43

Welcome to The Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders God intends you to be. I'm your host, Chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, fellas, meet episode time. Let's get right into it. Okay. So the scripture of the week this week is in the book of 1 Timothy, 6th chapter. And we're looking at two verses, verses 11 and 12. It says, but flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and for which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. So love those verses, guys. Again, take some time. Go back and listen to the spiritual kickoff episode where we simplify and apply that to our lives as Christian men. Guys, this is what it's all about. And again, if you enjoy the spiritual kickoff episodes each week, Monday through Friday, I do that live in the Lion Within Us community. We don't put that content anywhere else. So it's completely free to you. It even opens up our prayer request area for the Lion Within Us. So it's just a great way to connect, to see what the Lion Within Us is all about. No, there's no risk, there's no charge, nothing. Okay, just hop in, see what it's about, and I can I guarantee you you will be encouraged, and then we can maybe even get you connected with some guys that are going to help walk with you along the way. All right. So this episode is going to be great, guys. Particularly you guys that like to fight, okay? So we're gonna be talking about a lot of fighting today. But we brought in Dr. Joel Tubman, and it was a phenomenal, phenomenal conversation. Okay. So he is the associate pastor on the teaching team at the Potter's House of Dallas, where he he preached regularly to a congregation of thousands. I mean talking about thousands. He has a big online presence as well, guys. Millions of guys following him, and he's alternating pulpits with Pastor T D Jakes. He's a mental health advocate. He's a pastor, he's a chaplain, he's a prolific speaker speaker, uh, he's an athlete. I mean, it's just a wonderful conversation. Went to Texas AM, uh, and I just so encouraged by this because he's he talks about how we as men have to fight to combat the lies of the evil one, of who he says we are, and recognize who we truly are. And and and really uh some several impactful things, but he wanted to really emphasize that we are more than just our calling. Our calling's important for sure, but we're more than that. We're sons of the king. And I'll tell you what, this is just a fun conversation. He's he's out of Florida as well. He lives in Florida. Great, great time with him. So hopefully you're gonna enjoy this conversation with Pastor Joel Tugman. Well, Pastor Joel, welcome to The Line Within us.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 4:24

How are you doing today? Hey man, I'm doing good. Thank you so much, Chris, for allowing me to come into the line within, man. Heard so much about you and about what you're doing for men because we are always left out. So thank God that you have the burden to make us first, man.

Chris Grainger: 4:40

Amen. Amen. Well, I tell you what, after getting your book and meeting you, I just I know this is gonna be a good one. So I'm excited to get into it. I always like to start fun though, Pastor Joel, with uh just giving a little bit of insight to something fun about you that not many people know about. Lots of people follow you and learn from you, but what's something that's maybe not as well known about you? I am an interior decorator. Okay.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 5:04

You gotta unpack that. I uh ever since I was a little kid, I used to turn the furniture around for my mom. You know, my mom was a single parent. And so she would come home and I would redesign. Back then we didn't have any money, so just turning things around gave a fresh look. Just the look itself sending things changed. And so when I got older and I started working, got my own place. Man, I started, you know, painting the rooms, buying uh artifacts and uh different whatnots is what I call them to make the room greater. And as I got more money, I got into paintings like this painting behind me. Uh everything about every home that we've ever lived in, I'm the one that decorates every room, everything, every color, everything. My wife doesn't do any of it. And people are like, oh, I love your house. She's like, it's him. And they're like, get out of it.

Chris Grainger: 6:04

That is a fun fact, right? There. I mean, I don't know many guys with that skill set, particularly like a mash, like a real big, tough guy like you. Yeah, man. Let me tell you something.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 6:13

I I like it so much. I could, I could, I could, I could get rich doing it, man. I'm telling you, I'm pretty dang up good, brother.

Chris Grainger: 6:24

I love it, love it, love it. Well, this is gonna be a fun a fun one. I'm I'm super pumped. You know, obviously excited for your book to come out, the fight to find yourself, moving from uncertain to unstoppable. Love the title, love the uh the photo, like this photo on the front, like just get out of my way, bro. Like, let's go. Like uh so hats off to that one. I mean, when you put a put a book together like I just did one myself, I know the work this involved. What was the burden on your heart to write about this? Because this is very personal. You you you open up a lot of things here.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 6:55

Dude, you know, and it is just a straight factual truth. I have been on stages preaching. I've been a coach at the Division I level for nearly 20 years. So being in rooms with important people, um, making decisions that affect a lot of people, um, watching real change makers sit in the rooms and and have serious business meetings about how to move numbers of lives to better. Doing all of that and not knowing who you are is like, it's such an empty feeling. And I had done it for so long. And let me say this because I haven't said this on any podcast yet. For years, we lived without my mom was single. Um we we we we only could get whatever she could provide. You know, she was a school teacher. Uh, they didn't make a lot of money back then. I think after their taxes, my mom had brought home seven, eight hundred bucks, you know, insurance and stuff. So she had three kids, and trying to watch us all play football, basketball, run track, do it all on her own. It was difficult for her to be in everything. It was difficult for her to understand everything, two boys, one girl. And so for years growing up, performance, achieving, and wanting to have better for living was pretty much the goal. So football was a way to do that. You know, I didn't I did not make it to the NFL, but I did play collegiate football and ran track collegiately. But that opened up the door for me to actually coach at the college ranks and then enjoy a wonderful life, making great money, traveling all over the world, and the perks that comes with that lifestyle is just oh my god, it's unbelievable. I kept doing it while I was pastoring. I didn't want to stop. Then on the other side, pastoring, becoming kind of pretty okay. People want to hear you, you're traveling the country and you have your relationship with Jesus Christ, and you're watching people's lives change. All of that compacted together, created a wonderful life for my family. But Chris, I still didn't know who I was the entire time. I was making great money providing for my family. Uh couldn't answer the tough questions, afraid to answer the tough questions. Uh, I had gotten high enough that if I were to go do the business of finding myself, it was going to be embarrassing to me. I thought. I thought if I had to actually get this kind of put this kind of attention and understanding who I was, it was going to unravel everything performance had built. So after COVID, I'm making a change to Dallas, Texas with my family. COVID shut down the performance. COVID shut down the traveling. COVID shut down everything that I had built that says, this is my identity, this is who I am. It introduced me. I didn't have to introduce anything. So that was when everything started unraveling. So from there, the death of my son, the death of my father created an avalanche of emotions that I didn't have the emotive language, the prowess. I didn't have anything to grab hold to to shake myself back into place because I didn't know myself. So I'm standing on the stage one night with Bishop T.D. Jakes, Michael Phillips, Vinshar Dobbins, and he's doing a teaching on sonship, and we're just standing on the stage. And uh prior to going out on the stage, he says to us, I do not want this to be a theology uh fight. I don't want this to be an opportunity for you guys to go out here and show how much you know. I want people to be able to feel you, touch you. So we're talking educationally, you know, profoundly a little bit. And then right in the middle of the conversation, somebody was saying something. I think Michael Phillips was talking. And it was a subject that was really pounding my spirit. And I just started crying, and I said, you know, I'm tired of not knowing who I am. I don't know who I am, and I break down crying, and the room breaks down crying. There's like 20,000 people online, and it's like, oh my God, I can't believe you just said that. That became the genesis of this book.

Chris Grainger: 12:00

Gracious. Wow.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 12:01

Because I'm at the at the moment I say it, Chris, there's 20,000 people online. It's a bill, it's a Bible study. And there's a thousand people in the room. Right. And I made that statement in front of people. And they're like, dude, you're standing on a stage with thousands of people. And get this, you're standing next to T.D. Jakes. What do you mean you don't know who you are? So it's Otsimoran. Something that I had been running away from. But the truth of the matter is we do it all the time. We become great at what we do. We become known for what we do. It's how we get rich. It's, it's, it's, it, it's, it opens up doors for us, it takes care of our families, it creates destiny for us, allows us to uh to become whatever it is we want to become, but it's all performance-driven. And uh at that moment, that turned the tide for me.

Chris Grainger: 12:54

Wow. So I mean, from that moment there, what was the next step? I mean, take us through that journey because it sounds like there was a lot to unpack.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 13:04

Well, the turn happened, the solution didn't. The turn happened, I get confronted with it. So uh Bishop is talking to me, like, wow, how do you feel? And I'm saying, I don't know how I feel. And he says, Well, I want you to know something. Whenever you become that vulnerable and transparent on stage, you're gonna feel naked, you're gonna feel ashamed. So I want you to understand that. And you're gonna be looking over your shoulder because people will take what you said about yourself and and you and say negative things about yourself, prepare for that. Number one. Number two, I want you to start thinking about therapy. Start thinking about therapy, so that go in and find out what happened to the little boy inside of you. Because now I think we're actually getting somewhere. What? He said, Yo, now we're finally getting somewhere. Let me say, Chris, why he says that to bring context to it. Um, I was very guarded emotionally. He had already been mentoring me and trying to break me from uh emojis when we communicate. If he sent me a message that says, hey, today's gonna be a wonderful day. Love you, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, yeah, I'd send back a strong arm, and that would be the total summation of my own. And I did it for a year and a half, where the emojis were my response to pretty much anybody that I spoke to. Uh, and so he says we have to break that, and he would text me and say, stop doing that. Stop find the language to say how you feel, even about good stuff. Take the time, take the time, search your own mind and express, express. So, expressing, I was very guarded. The only time that I would express myself is with anger. That's that's the terrible thing, uh, Chris. That's the only time I felt permission to express myself. And so look at how toxic that is. That I wouldn't express myself for love. I wouldn't express myself for joy. I wouldn't express myself for anything. Even in the book, I talk about my youngest daughter who gets her nails fixed, and she comes up and says, Oh, Dad, my nails are looking good. And I don't have the emotive language to say, oh my God, I love your nails, baby girl. I don't have it. You know, I'm like, oh, they look really good. And so my wife was like, Joel, you've got to get control of yourself. You've got to express yourself. So those deaths, they shook me so bad that I lost touch with just life's natural way of expressing within context. So those deaths shook me. Counseling helped kind of reshape me. Brothers, new brothers coming into my life. They didn't force themselves in, but they kind of did. Uh I think God sent them because there were times where I went completely silent on those guys and I wouldn't respond. But they stayed there to help push the relationship to a healthy place. My wife, my wife endured uh my harsh attitude during that era, inability to express, inability to communicate properly. My children. So it was a it was a long journey of therapy, love, community, prayer, commitment, recommitment, uh, just the cycle over and over and over again. And in the book, I talk about finding the fire to try, and that's what that is. Finding the fire to try. Because every I would try and hit a brick wall and stop. I try and hit a brick wall and stop. And it is very, very common. But without the tools in your hand, you'll let that wall tell you to lay down. But uh all of the people that walk the journey with me helped me burst that brick wall down.

Chris Grainger: 17:16

So that's kind of what Okay, okay. Well, guys, we'll take our first break. We'll be right back with Pastor Joel. If there's one habit that can change your home, it's this when a husband prays with his wife, not because it's a magic formula, but because it recenters your marriage under God's authority and care. And let's be honest, a lot of guys want to do it, but most don't know how to start without it feeling awkward. Maybe you tried it before and it felt forced, or maybe you've never tried it because you don't even know what to say. Or maybe you're thinking, man, I'm not a pastor, I'm just a guy. And that's why we created this guide. It's our how to pray with your wife. Simple guide. It's biblical, it's practical, and it's designed to help you start praying with your wife in a way that actually feels natural. So it's a five-section guide and it gives you a simple framework to get started. Okay, it makes sure everything is grounded in scripture, and it also has a powerful PDF that you can pull up whenever you need, especially when things get off, because they're gonna get off. That's normal. So this is all about reclaiming your marriage and reclaiming the spiritual leadership reigns of your home. Because praying with your wife is one of the strongest ways to fight for unity, to build trust, and to write the ship when life starts to pull you off a course. So if you're ready, get access today at thelionwithin.us slash guides. That's thelionwithin.us slash guides. And start unleashing the line within at home by leading your marriage through prayer. I am curious, Pastor Joel. It sounds like all those, you know, from the death to the counseling to your brothers that are speaking to your life, all these things, a couple of things come to mind that I wanted you to just explain expand on for our listeners. The intentionality that you recognize that you needed to make the change, uh, and the and and how you the um endurance to keep showing up. Because I mean, I'm sure going through some of that and uh it unrevealed some things that were not easy to walk through. And lots of times that's when guys stop. So I'd love to just if you like how how did you, you know, how did you make remain intentional and endure through through this journey?

Pastor Joel Tudman: 19:39

All right, you froze up on the real quick.

Chris Grainger: 19:41

So give me the first one one more time and the second one and I'm and I'll and I'll Yeah, I I really just want to know like how you through intentionality and endurance forged forward through this process because lots of guys, when they hit resistance or they hit areas they don't want to talk about, you know, that they just they've they've shut down their numb to, they refuse to go there. It sounds like you didn't refuse. You you went there anyway.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 20:05

I didn't refuse, number one. Let me tell you why, number one. And number one is kind of loaded. Number one, the men that were around me in this season of my life were whole. There were men around me that were already surrendered really to Jesus. Not that the men in the past weren't, but these men were really surrendered to Jesus. These men were, they, they actually cared about me. And they had their own experiences coupled with scripture that could help me along the way. So they were already healthy men, whole men, that didn't have anything to gain from me. Um in the past, I had some men in my life spiritual, I'm not gonna call them spiritual fathers, but they were men that, you know, when you connected to them, you sold into their lives. Just there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not knocking that. But it was more of a benefit for them. What you could do for them, basically. Right. Yeah, more. So I didn't really get much from them uh except to just say I was attached to them, but they got more from me. But this next way, it didn't matter how much I gave them, it was not gonna change anything. They were doing very, very well in their lives, and they had already accomplished things that I was looking to accomplish. So there was no reason to pretend. There was no reason to walk in a room. And act like I had everything because they really did have everything. Okay. One. Two, they exemplified, and there was only three of them. They exemplified the kind of man that you really want to be. Okay? They weren't perfect, but they had established themselves academically. They had established themselves financially. They had established themselves with their families. Families weren't perfect, but they were together and they learned how to work through their troubles, their problems. So they really did have a compass through areas that I was actually struggling in. Okay. Spiritually, they were devoted to God, still are. Culturally, they were awakened and understood how to navigate dealing with being black, disparities, but yet successful and learning how to help other men navigate the unknown and the uncertainty. So they had roadmaps. So I wasn't alone per se. And even when I did feel alone, God had put such a burden in them to fish after me. Even when I would take the hook out of me so I could sink to the ground, they'd come right back down like a scuba dive and put the hook back in me and say, hey, we ain't letting you go. So that's why community to me, Brotherhood, oh man, it has taken on a whole new meaning. Not just assembling together, but it does start there, though. It does start assembling together. But you being open to being injured by another man. Let me tell you something. Men don't like to befriend men after a certain age, 35, 40, the studies are showing about after 40s, men struggle. And most of the time it's due to the fact that we're set in our ways. A, B, we probably have been injured by a close friendship and choose not to be injured again. But the true bum of having another brother there is you actually just say, you know what? I'm going to be open to the opportunity that I may be injured. But you know what? That even the injury, when you put it on a scale, being injured by another brother doesn't even equate to being helped by another brother, by another brother intervening in a circumstance, another brother riding with you through the storm and the rain. Another brother showing up at your father's funeral, showing up at your children's birthday party, going to pick up your kids. I got men right now that when I leave the city to go preach, they come by, check on my family. They come by, if if if my daughter's got to go somewhere, they're gonna help take her. My wife doesn't have to fight for anything. And I, Chris, I don't have a problem with it. What have a problem with? Okay, sounds crazy. All right. So here's what I mean. I'm like, God, what did I do to deserve these men in my life? Because how am I reaping this? I don't I don't remember sowing this. I don't remember, not like this. These are well-respected men. These are men who are, man, they're sheriffs and private investigators. I mean, they're high-ranking guys, and they're like, hey, picking me up from the airport, no matter where I'm at, where I am, what you need, sir. What do you need, sir? I'm like, where does this come from? And so I was like, God, I don't, I don't deserve this. And God is not talking to me like it's not about what you deserve. You're my son. And you have learned, I have learned how to be open to the possibility of being hurt. But that is not the substratum of friendship, but it is something you need to understand. You you will, there is a possibility that you'll be hurt. But Chris, there's just as much as a possibility that you could be loved. That's such and much possible. That's an even greater possibility that someone's gonna be a ride of that brother to the day you die. They're gonna be there for you through the thick and thin, and they don't want to dine. They don't want to be, they don't want to picture, they don't care. They just want you to be well, and I didn't know that existed until I got healed. And so I'm on the other side of healing. I am open to this, open to this new side that I've been closed off to because I had built that big wall. So uh that's a all the men in my life now are men that are whole men. They're they're well, they are in touch with their own idiosyncratic ways. They're not embarrassed of their past failures, and they've recognized that even those failures have been uh launching pads to propel them into destiny in whatever area they were felling, whether it was the marriage, whether it was their health, uh, physical health, mental health, they're not embarrassed to open up. So, hey, that being around healthy men, whole men has helped me. Um, I've been going so long on the first one, I don't even remember what the second question was.

Chris Grainger: 27:21

It wasn't it was around uh resilience, but I'm I'm before you leave the whole men thing, like speak to the guy out there right now, Pastor Joel, who doesn't have those whole men in their life. Like, where do you find these guys? Obviously, you got you you just listed off some green some green flags to look for, like some signs, some identificators. But but where do you find them? Where would you point guys to start if to build those types of relationships in their own life?

Pastor Joel Tudman: 27:45

They're all over the place. And they're in places where you probably frequent the weight room, the gym. But one of the things you're gonna have to learn to do is possibly maybe pull your headsets off and listen, you know, and see what men are talking about. Because you're gonna be able to tell the circle you really don't want to be involved with quickly. That's that's given. But there are gonna be men that when I train, I'm hearing guys talk about the stock market in one room, not one room, but on one machine. On another machine, I'm listening to guys talk about their struggles with their marriage. Those are good signs. I'm on a room, I'm listening to guys talk about their health challenges. I'm listening to guys talk about the business meeting they're getting ready to go to, and uh getting advice from the other guy on the Star Master on what he thinks he should say. Those are men that are whole because they're not afraid to share the weakness. Now, not every man is gonna share his weakness open, but when you can see a group of guys, and it's not gonna be one visit, if you're going to the gym over and over and over again, because most of the time, men, we are routine driven. So you're gonna see the same man with the same men training over and over and over and over again because that's become their community, that's where they feel safe. And that's when you go up and introduce yourself and you say, Hey, Chris, I notice, you know, you guys trainer every day, man. My name's Joel, and uh, you know, I work for so-and-so, so-and-so, so-and-so. I'm working by myself, man. I love to train with you guys. They may say no. And that's okay. Because that's their safe space. Okay. So what you have to do is say, well, hey, man, it's nice to meet you every now and then. Just let me come in and get one lift in, you know? And okay, okay. And they may say yes and they may say no, but keep watching them. Keep watching. You can make sure that you're still seeing the same thing and hearing the same thing because most of the time, a healthy guy, a whole guy, when they show up together, they're talking about things that are going to help propel them and push them to the next destiny and possible barriers that are keeping them from becoming what they need to be. They look forward to that time. Okay. I think your persistence over time, you don't get on the guy's nerve. But if they don't let you train within a week, ask them again next week. Ask them again the next week. And then the week after that I say, man, I'm getting in this group, man. You guys, your end is like, is really pushing, pulling me. And you'll be surprised they'll let you in. And it's the same way with the barbershop, it's the same way at golf. You can hear the language of your future if you really pay attention to it. And everything is not going to be easy. That's why we're talking about the fire to try. Anything that's worth being a part of, they're not just going to just let you in, okay? Not that group of men. You you're going to you'll have a better chance with a one-on-one than you will with the group, because those guys, that is their safe space. Okay. But they may let you in. So that's once, those are a couple of different spaces. Church. Church is a is church is tricky because church is a hospital. Church has a combination of evil, well, whole, broken, manipulation. It's all there. And so uh the truth of the matter is I think church is probably the place where you got to have your antennas up the highest. Uh, but I will say this you're not gonna be able to interpret what's not in you, okay? So you're gonna have to make sure that you have the word of God in you so that when you're in the room, you can sense, you can discern the kind of men that God would have you uh be a part to help transition your life where you need to go. There's nothing wrong with trying men's groups, being a part of those groups and getting in and listening and diving in, being a part of it, uh, but yet still guarding your heart. The Bible tells us to guard a heart. Guard your heart. Uh, but don't put a massive wall against it to where you can't receive help from people. But in the room and explore and see what's going on, because you have to do that in anything you want to become in life. You got to get become a part of it. And being open to understanding, there is a possibility you may get injured. That's not God's fault, that's human fault. It's that's a part of the curse, the part of mankind that we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. So injury shouldn't be an insult to you from God, as if God let you down. Okay, that is a part of mankind's fall. But what we have to do is stay prayed up, read the word, okay? Really ask God, lead me and show me who it is, God, what group, what men, what man can help me. Last, if you have a mentor, that mentor can help point you to people. Okay, that mentor can help point you to people where you're not gonna have to have your guards up so high automatically. Right. Because and tried by fire. Uh, and then lastly, Chris, if you are a natural born resilient man, don't lose that just because you're spirit field. Because you said yes to Jesus. I don't know if you can find a more resilient person than Jesus Christ. That's right. He knows he's coming to the world to die, but yet he comes strong and he wakes up every morning to go get new men, knowing he's going to die. He walks into Jerusalem on a Friday, looking at them. They're saying, Hosanna, he knows I'm coming. This is my last weekend on earth. I'm coming to die. He knows when he goes into get sending me. Father, let this cup pass from me. He knows. He's sitting there eating the Lord's meal, the last meal of the night. Whatever you do, do it quickly. He knows. Peter goes, chops off the man's ear, he takes the ear, puts it back on the man because he knows faith comes by hearing. Hearing by the word of the Lord. And he tells her, You're going to deny me three times before the crow or the chip cross or whatever. He does it. He knows he died. And he's so resilient that even death can't stop. That's right. That is an attribute from your father, Jesus Christ. And you have to remember that. Yeah, he saves, and yes, he's wonderful. And yes, he loves, but he's a resilient God. And that's what's in you. And as a man, all this other stuff is wonderful. Oh, get another man in your life, get another brother. If you recognize the kind of savior you got, he's a man's man. That's what he was. If you recognize that and internalize that, you tell me who can stop you. That's why the Bible said, God be for you. Come on, brother. More than the whole world against you. You have a born-again, resilient spirit already flowing through your veins. You just got to awaken to it. But you don't know that if it's not in you. Let's go.

Chris Grainger: 35:53

Let's go.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 35:54

That's the mind.

Chris Grainger: 35:56

Let's go, man. That's awesome. That's awesome. Guys, we're going to be right back because I want to unpack something that Pastor Joel just said that I think it's going to help you guys. We'll be right back, fellas. So there's one thing that you said that that I want to really get your insight on, Pastor Joel, where you're talking about when you gave the analogy of being in the gym and being around those whole men, but you flew by it, but this is the hard part, I think, for a lot of guys. You said you had to take the headphones off. Yeah. And because we're we're numb to the I mean, so many guys are numb right now because there is so much noise going on all the time. And cell phones, smartphones, whatever, it's everywhere it's noisy. So how do you do that? Like how what do you do? Is there practices? How what do you do to counsel guys who are to shut the noise down from the world to be able to hear what guys trying to tell them?

Pastor Joel Tudman: 36:49

Let me tell you something. Let's let's go back to the weight room and then we'll come out of it. Okay. In the weight room. If you're used to training by yourself, then you're going to put headphones on. Headphones are to, number one, so you can hear your favorite songs and give you, quote unquote, quote unquote, the energy. It's really not giving you energy and it's really not setting the tone, but in your mind, your mind is telling you that you need it. But number three, it also shuts you off from people talking to you. That's exactly what it does. It keeps you, quote-unquote, focused, so people really don't get a chance to talk to you. So we can call it focused, whatever we want. That's whatever we want to call it, but it keeps us individualized. Okay. And the only time you can actually have a productive conversation with somebody while you're training is to actually take the headsets off. Remove the headsets off. Two things are going to happen. When I take the headsets off, I've now become open to who I'm lending my attention to. Okay. Then whoever I'm lending my attention to in the gym, they're in the gym to train. They're not in the gym to drink coffee and eat donuts. So if I'm taking my headsets off, I'm actually taking my headsets off to lend my world with someone else's world who is coming in the room to train. We may not be training the same body part. We may not be focused on the same results, but we have the same work ethic. Okay. Because we came here to change. Okay. His intensity may be different than my intensity, but I didn't come here to match his intensity. I came for certain results. But a lot of times, if we stay closed off, we stay closed off. We stay so focused to ourselves that we think that blocking off exterior voices keeps us focused. But in reality, it is keeping you from entering into a new dispensation, into new friendships, into new relationships, into new opportunities. Okay. So let's take it that way. It's the same thing when it comes to the naughty in the world. You have to know what to take the headsets off for. You have to know what why should I remove my headsets for certain people? And they're going to be people that are going to be different than you. Different intensity, different jobs, different motives, different color, different economic status. And you can't take the headset off just because Chris and I look alike, Chris and I know each other. Chris and I feel comfortable with each other. That's a life you're already used to. That's a life you already know. And if you feel that the only way you can be safe is by staying connected with the kind of people that you know that look like you, do what you do, that is such a dull life. But if that's what you want, that's fine. So I can't, I'm not gonna knock that to you. But what I will tell you, you've been living life this way for 40 years, 20 years, 50 years? How's life treating you? What have you learned? What is your circle opened up to you? What is it, what has it taught you new? And you can't use I feel safe as an excuse. You think Jesus felt safe walking on the shores of Galilee? You think he felt safe walking in Capernaum? You think he felt safe in Ghassinity? You think he felt safe in Calvary? Safe? It's an illusion. Okay? It's an illusion. It's about having the comforter of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, in you in a chaotic world. That's the only safety any of us really truly have. That when we die, because you are going to die, the only real safety you have is going back to heaven with Jesus. So scratch safe. All right? Scratch the heaven. I've got to learn how to be open to what God is wanting to do. And none of the 12 men were the same. None of them. Judas wasn't Peter, Peter wasn't Bartholomew, John wasn't Andrew. They were all, they weren't all fishermen. I think four of them were. They were different kinds of men that came together and created what we have today, that we're walking around giving God the glory. And their focus aligned. It didn't mean that they had to be the same, but their focus, they're focused aligned. And it takes time to do that. So as the world uh continues to get more chaotic, which it's going to be, and it continues to bring more and more bad information. I think the more variety of men that you can have in your life that are bringing different viewpoints. Look at the gospel. Right. The gospel is different vantage points of the same man. It makes you more healthy so that you don't think things are one way. So I am a firm believer that you are going to have to take the headsets off and listen to the variety. But hear me, hear me when I say this. Again, you need to do the business of finding yourself so that you're not running like a chicken with your head cut off, trying to figure out who you are when you should be on assignment. And that's what I was doing. Okay. Right. Right. I'll be this person and be that person and be that person and be that person and be this person without ever uncovering who I really am. So that's that's the one thing to fall back on. Okay. Right. So just make sure you do the business of finding you. And uh, and I know I went all over the place, Chris, but you you put me out. Uh uh, that's why I believe that finding you is more important than finding your calling. Okay. Your calling is important. God called you to preach, He called you to prophesy, He called you to play music, all of that stuff is beautiful and it's wonderful. But you can become so great after you found this calling and still haven't found yourself. And then you have all of these crazy struggles that end up affecting your calling. And you're like, oh my God, I rose to power. Power in what? Power in your calling, but never had any possession of self. And so the lack of self will eventually interrupt the flow of calling. Because the first calling is you. Who are you? Because he's saving you. Okay. And once you get that, it brings more potency to your call. Because now it's evil to be your authentic self within your calling.

Chris Grainger: 44:20

So I'm sorry for going all over the place, bro. No, this is great. This is great. I do want to just touch on one thing that you mentioned because I think this is where lots of guys get stuck. I think we got to go beyond age and stage because we're very comfortable with that, with staying with age and stage of life. And I think that's that's that's incredible wisdom there. And I I brought this up to my church. I said, look, we're making a mistake. And here's a mistake. We set up our Sunday school classes by you know young couples or singles or college and career, then you have your older people. I'm like, look, I want to learn from an 80-year-old man who's been through life. Come on. And I think I can bring some value to that 80-year-old man as well. So if you don't, if you don't let us mingle and interact, we're we're missing it. And I think that is just that's been the most salient thing that I've learned. Is like, man, I I my mentor, he's 87. And when he speaks, you better. I mean, it's not easy stuff to me. But but I mean, I I had to intentionally go find that, is what I'm saying. And like I think too many guys, like if they're not in my same age or stage, like I can't, I can't get anything from them. Like, no, you're missing it, brother.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 45:25

Man, you're missing it big time. It's such a melting pot. I remember when I was doing a uh young adult group, um, one of the biggest things I had to do was get them to understand, get the church to understand. Because they kept saying, hey, just do, I don't think it was young adults. Maybe it was young adults. Uh it was it was young adults, but they wanted to do 20, uh, 27 or something like that. And I told them, I said, I don't think it's gonna work because of my age. Okay, I'm I I'm older than that. And I said, but what I think we want to do, because the pastor was 67. So, and they hadn't had a strong young adult group in years. So I said, because I'm 40, let me have 20s, 30s, all right, and some 40s. All right, let me have them. I said, uh, let me keep the teens with the if they're 19, let them stay with the 18 years old. When they turn 20, let me have them. And they and they kept saying, well, why would you do that? I said, because there's some things that a 20-year-old needs to hear 30-year-old tell them about. There's some things a 30-year-old needs to hear 40-year-old talk about. I said, and we will create a melting pot so that Gen X can speak in to uh the millennials, the Gen Z can hear all the way from the Gen X, uh, because it's the same road. It may not be the same temptation, but it's it's gonna lead to the same place and to the same emotional disturbance. And they were like, oh, I don't know about that. And so, brother, before you know it, there are 40-year-olds paired with a 20-year-old, and and and a 40-year-old is explaining to them what they're going through, how to talk to their mother when you've graduated, or how to talk to your mother when you're finishing college and you feel grown. And then there's a 20-year-old that didn't go to college that's already a multi-millionaire. They don't have the emotive language of how to express themselves, but financially, they're kicking butt. You know, they're kicking butt. And they're telling Gen X, yo, this is how you can uh take that $60,000 salary you got and turn it into $150,000. So it's beautiful to see the world interlock, come together, and hear from each other. I think age and stage is really, like you said, it's really messed us up. And if we can become open to variety, differences, man, you'd be surprised how your life can really be pulled back and released like an arrow and shot forward into a whole new destiny, just from being open to listening to different age brackets and dispensations and where they've been to what they've done. I agree 100%.

Chris Grainger: 48:21

Amen. Amen. Well, thank you for unpacking that. And then I love how you talked about you finding you is more important than finding your calling. And but so many guys kind of going all the way back to the genesis of our conversation. You you said at the beginning, performance and achieving was kind of the a big part of who you were and how you identified. So, how do you help guys who are internalizing, maybe they they feel like performance is all that matters, to find value in who they are and not what they do? I mean, what what how do you get guys going there?

Pastor Joel Tudman: 48:52

Well, I can tell you this much. Performance may provide money. And performance can provide power, it can provide status. But there, if you tell the truth, brother, it does not provide self-fulfillment. You can't sit back and say you're proud of you. You can sit back and say, I'm proud of a move I made, I'm proud of the partnerships. And what it does, if you continue to live off the performance myth, you end up living a life of avoidance, and you're only avoiding you. And you'll say, Well, it's not really avoidance, Joel. It's my schedule. I've been there. You write one book, you start the next one. In the middle of this book, you build a new company. While you're building a new company, you're going over because you got a new partnership. You got a new partnership, then you got a brand new deal over here. You got look at that. There is zero time for you to actually sit down and say, why am I still watching porn? Why am I still overdosing? Why am I still beating my wife? Why am I still uh uh cursing my children out? Why am I still not wanting to go home? Why am I still hearing voices in my head? Why do I still feel like I'm not valuable? Oh, you got all that money and you got all those friends. That performance can't answer any of those questions. None of them. Okay, and so if you want to fix that inner set, that inner locking that's inside of you that forces you to avoid it. So every everything you do, you get appreciation, but you always end up coming back to the central self and you hate it, so you start something else, you're gonna have to stop. Because it doesn't make no difference how much money you make. You're gonna get to an age where you're gonna say to yourself, I like myself or I hate myself. What's your answer gonna be?

Chris Grainger: 51:17

Chris, one of my mentors said to me, I love myself, and I couldn't respond.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 51:27

I put it in the book, I couldn't respond. I couldn't say, and I love myself too. I love the only thing I can say was I love my job, I love, I love where I've been able, what I've been able to accomplish. I wasn't loving my kids right, wasn't loving my wife right, wasn't loving no anybody right, wasn't loving me right until I did the work of digging through all of this trash that I've piled on top because of performance myth, was I able to recognize, okay, I am very unhealthy because I don't like me. So, brothers, I will say to you, you're worth your time. And you don't have to be on the chase to do the next deal. And even though you're like, oh man, it's well, it's gotta be God. God's opened up the door, it's not always God, man. You don't think God cares about you? You don't think God cares about you being whole? You don't think God thinks the greatest deal is the deal of you being healed? Or do you think you gotta find another deal for you to feel like his hand is on you? Oh man, his hand is on you. The you with no career, the you with no wife, the you with no children, the you that's trying to figure it out as we speak, that's sitting there scratching his head, trying to figure out what's the next move. Should I move to New York? Should I move to Washington? Our lives as men are filled with that stuff all day long. Do I take the job? Do I not take the job? Do I ask her to marry or not? Do I go? Do I not go? Do I go to Detroit or do I go to New York? It's all we think about all day long. Versus, I need to learn how to think. I need to learn how to decompartmentalize. I need to learn how to unload. I need to learn how to be okay with the decision that I made 20 years ago and it's been haunting me. How do I get out of that? How do I how do I heal from that? Right. How do I heal from guilt, shame, pride? You don't get those things until you stop worrying about the deals and heal. I think you're worth more than all of that stuff. Because if you can get that right, you'll be surprised. All the deals that you've had to put together to feel good, you could just feel good with no deals. And God may bring the one deal that changes your entire life. That's right. That's right.

Chris Grainger: 54:19

Well, I mean, and really it's kind of one of our last questions, then we'll go into a lightning rail. But there's probably a guy listening right now who feels like he's failed too much. Like he's he's he's stumbled too many times, and there's no turning, there's no starting over. What do you say to that guy?

Pastor Joel Tudman: 54:35

That's a lie, and that's a myth because it's been driven by performance. That you can't outsend God's grace. Amen. You can't outsend his grace. Um, let me tell you something, brother. This all starts in chapter one of this book. I open it up talking about Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist. And when he goes down in that water, he comes up and he hears his father's voice. You are my beloved son, and whom I am well pleased. And then he sends him into the doggone wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Okay. You hear him say it a couple of more times in scripture where they're on Mount Transfiguration, this is my beloved son. Okay? So Jesus, God says this to his son at the lowest and the highest. And you got to understand that it's not about performance with Christ. He died for you before you even were born into the world. He who knew no sin became sin, that you could become the righteousness of God. Okay. And then God is so powerful that he sends the Lamb to be slain before the foundation of the world. So when Jesus comes, it's just the fulfillment of a confession or vow that he's already made, knowing every mistake that you would ever make. Period. So with God having that kind of knowledge, you got to have the knowledge that you have a God that knows all. Okay? It starts with him. It doesn't start with, it doesn't start with your performance. It doesn't start with how high you've gotten. And I didn't understand that. That's what I'm telling you now. It doesn't start with, man, if I start this work now, the people are gonna look at me and say, I can't believe you who did that. They're gonna say it anyway. You're 80, whether you're eight, they're gonna say it anyway. So they can't be the height of the decisions that you're making. Jesus is, God is, and he says, You are my beloved son, in who I'm well pleased. That is the foundation of your tribe. That is the foundation of your heart, that is the foundation of your stand. That is the foundation that you gotta start from knowing, wait a minute, I did this, but he loved me. I did that, but he loved me. I did this too, and he loves me. I did that and he loves me because his love for you is not based off of what you did. There's no performance. It's his performance that's giving you what you need. So you need to reset your substratum, reset your foundation. And your foundation needs to be from the beloved status that he loves me. I'm his beloved, regardless of my past, regardless of my present, he's my beloved. When I recognize that, brother, then I realize wait a minute. The decisions that I've made in the past, he still loves me, he loves me. As low as I was, he loved me. Not loved, loves me. And I can build with love. I can build with his care and his concern. If I can do it, trust me, I know you can do it. So start right there.

Chris Grainger: 58:24

There you go. There you go, guys. Well, Pastor Joe, this has been great. We always like to kind of towards the end of our episodes, we have a fun lightning round. So if you want, if you're willing to play, we'll jump in. You got me scared. Let's go. No, no, no. I haven't lost a patient yet. So we're good. We're good. So uh favorite hobbies. Obviously, I know you're you're working you're a gym gym nut, but any other hobbies you enjoy doing?

Pastor Joel Tudman: 58:48

Well, before I came to Florida, fishing, and it's crazy because uh the only reason I haven't fished here is because I haven't found the the crew that likes to fish. But when I was in Oklahoma, we would go to lakes all the time and and fish for striper, striper fish. Yeah. We get out in the boat, throw it out, and let them hit. Boom, you know. But out here, I'm in the ocean, so I have no idea what's gonna hit. And I'm kind of tired. That's right.

Chris Grainger: 59:17

What's your what's your favorite, your go-to food, Pastor Joe? What are you going to?

Pastor Joel Tudman: 59:25

I I try to be healthy, but man, let me tell you something. I love pizza. Okay. Pepperoni, sausage, extra cheese, light sauce.

Chris Grainger: 59:38

That's that's the secret formula, huh? I love it. What's your if you and your wife have a date night, you're able to sit down. What's a movie, all-time favorite movie? What do you got? What do you guys gonna put on? Check this out. My wife does not like movies. Okay.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 59:54

I got a wife that doesn't care about movies at all. What she cares about is just the time.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:00

There you go. There you go. Just just that time with you. Yep, yep, yep. Quality time. That's my wife's love language as well. Love it. All right. How about uh superpower? So if you could have a superpower, Pastor Joel, which one would you like to have and how would you use it? Flying at the speed of light.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 1:00:22

Just go. And if I could fly, let me tell you why, because I am I am, and I think this is gonna help a brother. I I have such a wretched past um having children early. And uh we grew up in different homes. And no matter how much I could be at one game or one game or one game, I'm never at all the games because they're in different places. So if I had the superpower, it'd be the ability to fly to one, fly to another, fly to one, fly, but everybody could see me.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:58

There you go. There you go. How about any habits? Have you created any habits recently that you found helpful or useful? We just always try to give our guys tips. This could be a health thing, a well thing. It could be something for a marriage, just anything that you think would bring value.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 1:01:13

Yeah, uh eating healthy. Again, I told you about the pizza, but I have a trainer that has put me on these different meals that have affected myself and my my spouse. Changed our body, made us a little bit more aware of what we're taking into our bodies, and uh so that when we do have our cheap meals, we understand what's going on with our body. So that's Definitely.

Chris Grainger: 1:01:41

There you go. That intake matters, guys. You can't out exercise a fork for sure. So come on, brother. How about uh when you think about God, Pastor Joel? What's your favorite thing about him? Just what what what comes to mind? Wow.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 1:01:56

God, that's a hard question. I've never been asked that question before. My favorite thing about my favorite thing about God is that he keeps you conscious of your own inadequacies. Okay. So you never rise higher. You always have a sober mindset. You know what I'm saying? Sure. So really in a relationship with him, you never think yourself too high. And you don't think that you're better than other people because you realize there's a very God is so sobering. Wait a minute. Remember you? You remember how you were? That's what I love.

Chris Grainger: 1:02:41

Well, if you haven't heard that one, maybe you haven't heard this one either. So what's your least favorite thing about Satan?

Pastor Joel Tudman: 1:02:48

My least favorite thing about Satan. Wow. Heck of a question. Where do you get these questions from, man? I've been doing this for a while. Your least favorite thing about Satan. That Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. He can almost fool the very elect, according to scripture. So if you're not really Titan, you could be thinking that you're in the will of God so easily because he actually understands it. So uh staying in the word and staying consecrated is really, really, really I know that I got serious, but it's the truth. Oh, that's true. He can confuse you, man.

Chris Grainger: 1:03:39

So true. So true. Love it. Well, last question for you, Pastor Joel, was what do you hope the guys remember the most from our conversation today?

Pastor Joel Tudman: 1:03:48

The realness. Because I think that you do such a good job of not turning your platform into performance to show how brilliant you are. You really dig into the roots of what we need as men so that men have real practical steps on how to navigate wherever they are in their life. So I hope that the just the natural raw conversation and our openness about the topics that men are able to take and say, you know what? I got some fire to try.

Chris Grainger: 1:04:25

Amen. Amen. Where do you want to send them, Pastor Joel? The guys that are listening to get a copy of your book to connect with you. I'm sure you're on social media as well. Just where do you want to connect them at?

Pastor Joel Tudman: 1:04:35

Man, you can go to social media, Joel Tupman. I am on Instagram. Uh I really don't do anything else. TikTok is out there, Facebook, they're fake pages. Uh but Instagram, I am on Instagram. I have a website, drjoeltman.com. Uh, you can get my book. You can Google it. It's everywhere. Books are sold. I would love for you to get a copy of it and uh hope it transforms your life. Amen. Amen. Was there anything else you'd like to share today, sir? Amen. I just want to tell you thank you. Uh enjoy my conversation, my time with you. And you are every bit of what everybody says you are. You know how to lion out. That's what it takes a lion. Feel comfortable with another lion, man. Thank God for you and your community.

Chris Grainger: 1:05:20

Amen. Thank you. Thank you so much, Pastor Joel.

Pastor Joel Tudman: 1:05:22

Thank you, brother.

Chris Grainger: 1:05:26

All right, guys. I told you that was gonna be a great one. So thankful for Pastor Joel for sharing just all the wisdom and insight that he shared today. Highly encourage you, go get a copy of his book. Again, it's called The Fight to Find Yourself from moving from uncertain to unstoppable. So, guys, just pick up a copy there. You won't be disappointed. And the question, again, what you need to think about this week is what is God calling you to stand and fight for right now? Like is he, I guarantee he's he's calling you to stand and fight for truth. Where is that? Where are you denying that? And at what point are you gonna stop that denial and step into that calling? Okay. All right, fellas, this has been great. Thank you again for for listening, for hanging out. Head over to delionwithin.us, please check out the website. We have lots of resources. Join our weekly roar. It's a weekly newsletter that comes out every Monday. Guarantee it'll give you a little boost in your inbox. Better than anything, you're gonna get just out there. But there's not gonna be an email you want to throw away, I promise you. So get that. Check out our daily spiritual kickoff. That's free. Hop into the community, see what that's all about. Start your 30-day free trial. Put in an application for a leadership mastermind to see if that's gonna be a good fit for you in this journey, of particularly where you're at right now in your discipleship journey. Okay, so all those resources are found there. You can even open up the Bible app and search for the lion within us. We have over 50 plans on the Bible app, guys. We're regularly putting content there because we know if you guys are in the word, you're growing. And all the these plans, all they do is help come alongside to give you some reflections, some questions, some areas to consider so they can hopefully help you during that time in the word, fellas. So again, all that's found, just open up the Bible app or you can head over to the linewithin.us slash Bible and check us out there. Okay. If you might guys wouldn't mind giving us a rating and review, that'd be big, it'd be really helpful. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, all the standard social media channels. We we put you know just good, wholesome content out every day. So we have stuff going on out there at all times. Get a copy of our book, Unleashing in Lion Within. Would love for you guys to get a copy back. Just head over to Amazon, grab you a copy right there. And other than that, guys, just thank you so much for the support. If you want to be a monthly donor or regular donor of the show, lionwithin.us slash donate. We certainly would appreciate it. And I just thank you for all that you do for us. All right. So, guys, have a great day. Get after it. Come back on Friday. Again, we've changed up our format for our for our fun Fridays, but hopefully you're going to enjoy those and looking forward to seeing them. All right. Well, have a great day. Just keep on leashing lion with them. Let's just say it out loud. Marriage is one of the greatest gifts that God can give a man, and one of the most consistent places where we can feel unsure of what we're doing. Even the strongest marriages have moments where you look at your wife and you think, you know what? I love you. I'm so committed to you. But right now, I have no idea what I should do next. And that's why we launched something new inside the lion within us community. It's our very first support group. And it's for husbands. And we're calling it committed and occasionally confused. This isn't just a place for men in crisis. Though if you're there, hey, you're welcome. This is for any man who refuses to coast and wants to take his marriage from good to great. So inside, you'll find an active chat and a feed, honest conversations, and brotherhood that says, you're not alone. We've been there. Let's bring this to God and grow. And we're also doing a monthly couples night where your wife is invited because we're not letting the world set the agenda for our homes. Now, if you want access to this support group, it's very simple. Go to thelionwithin.us and join the Lions Den. Okay, that's thelionwithin.us. Start your 30 day free trial of the Lions Den community, and boom, you have instant access to the committed and occasionally confused support group. We'll see you inside the den.