Chris Grainger: 1:43

Welcome to The Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders God intends you to be. I'm your host, Chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, fellas, this is your meet episode. Let's get right into it, okay? So the scripture of the week this week is in the book of Luke, the sixth chapter, the 40th verse, okay? It says a student is not above his teacher, but everyone, when he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. Love that verse, guys. It's going to tie directly into what we're going to be talking about today with our guests. But if you haven't had a chance, go back and listen to the spiritual kickoff episode because I took a time to unpack that verse to see how you can simplify and apply it to your life. And again, this is what we do every day, Monday through Friday at the Lion Within is we call it daily spiritual kickoff. So if you if you like this the podcast, if you're enjoying it, if you're getting value out of it, head over to the LionWithin.us, start your daily spiritual kickoff today. Okay, now for this episode, we brought in uh Pastor Heath Hardesty. Okay, he is the author of All Things Together, How Apprenticeship to Jesus is the way of flourishing in a fragmented world. So I actually just enjoyed this one. He's the lead pastor at Valley Community Church, uh, and he's uh just done some really great things in Pleasanton, California. He grew up in a blue-collar home and and really uh really I enjoyed just hearing some of that upbringing. What did that look like? He was a plumber's apprentice, okay. So this he literally has done from plumbing to to the to the pastoring. Uh he did that in Colorado, and uh now he's in Silicon Valley. He has his wife, he has four kids, uh, he's doing some amazing things. He's he has degrees in literature, leadership, biblical studies, theology, all from the University of Colorado, Boulder, and uh and as well as Western Seminary Seminary in Portland. So just a fun conversation. Heath has a lot of energy. Uh he brings some practical truth, guys. It's not it's not just gonna be throwing out a bunch of uh, I guess you should say, verses and scriptures that would just, you know, and just leave it. No, he tries to really take okay, how do we apply that? And as for you guys who follow the lion, you know that's what is really near and dear to my heart. It's one thing to to hear God's word, it's another thing to actually understand it to the ability to put to put it into practice. So that's what this is all about, though. So hopefully you enjoy this conversation with Heath Hardesty. Well, Heath, welcome to the Lion Within Us. How are you doing today, sir? I'm doing great, Chris. Thanks for having me on here. I really appreciate it. Well, I'm super excited. I'm thankful for Brett as well. Brett, he connects me with some pretty awesome people. So look looking forward to this conversation for sure. And before we kind of get into it, I always like to start with just a little bit light. What's something fun about you, Heath, that uh maybe not many people know about?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 4:22

Oh man, um, that not many people know about. Well, uh, let's see. Um actually, a lot of people around my church community don't know that I used to lead worship. I used to play in bands, do guitar and vocals. Um, but that seems like another lifetime ago. So that's something that people are are surprised about because I don't I don't do it here at the church that I've been at for 16 years. All right, do you miss that at all? Well, that's a great question. Yeah, aspects of it for sure. I mean, I still have uh you know guitars around the house and and my study here at the church I'll pick up just to you know uh mess around with as I'm thinking. Um but I I do miss the synergy of playing with a band, you know, um exploring songs together, writing songs, all those things. But there's there's way more talented musicians here uh at our church, so um I'll let them do their thing.

Chris Grainger: 5:19

There you go. There you go. Well, I'm sure it's I'm sure it's great. Um and I'll tell you, I I must say I love the book, you know, all things together. And just I'm always curious because I just finished, I just released my first book as well. And I know when God lays it on your heart to write, you kind of have to do it. But for you, what was that journey like? What came up with the the genesis of of this book and led you to make this?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 5:42

Yeah. Well, you know, I've I've wanted to write uh a book for years. I was a literature major. Uh I've always loved uh books, you know, uh stories, even the smell of pages of books. I love to be surrounded uh by by books. Uh we have way too many books at my house and here in my study. Um so yeah, I've always wanted to write, and I've written poetry and you know, I write sermons every week, and I've written a number of essays and articles and things. But with this book specifically, um the genesis of it was the journey that that the Lord had taken me on from plumbing to to pastoring to understanding, learning to understand uh the way of apprenticeship. What does this what does this mean uh to grow in the likeness of of Jesus? And so uh this paradigm of apprenticeship that's in the book and the practices that uh is the second half of the book, these are things that we've been trying to get into the bones of our church community for the last 16 years. So yeah, all this stuff has been rolling around, kicking around inside for for a long time. And then uh after after seminary, uh after uh a baby and another baby, you know, it was just finally time where it's like, okay, I think, I think now is the season to write. Uh and then one other piece to it. Uh I have a good friend, he's a pastor in San Jose. His name uh is Jay Kim. He's written a number of books, like um Analog Christian and Analog Church. We were having sushi one day, and he's like, You have a book and you don't you? And I was like, I I think I might. So uh he said, Why don't you explore that? And and that encouragement really really kicked uh kicked it off.

Chris Grainger: 7:30

That is so awesome. Sometimes it's what it takes, just that little little affirmation from God through someone else that we need to get get the work done, right? So that thought that was pretty cool for sure.

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 7:41

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he and he was a great encouragement along the way, connected me with with an agent, and you know, that started the whole road down publishing, which has been uh a fun journey, uh a big learning curve, but a lot of fun.

Chris Grainger: 7:55

Sure. Um there's a that's definitely a lot of learning there. I'm also super interested because you had Pastor John write the floor for it for the book, and and I got to to engage with him at a conference just a few weeks ago, actually, in Florida. So the timing was kind of I've never really heard him preach before, but man, he is uh just a solid guy.

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 8:16

Yeah, yeah. John's awesome. So yeah, John Tyson uh has become a friend over the years, you know. Uh he I met him in a conference um years ago now, and then we just uh connected and then the relationship grew over the years, and uh he's graciously um willing to write the forew and be a just a huge advocate and um a great great friend throughout this whole journey. So I appreciate John a lot.

Chris Grainger: 8:46

100%, 100%. Well, I love, I mean, just kind of diving into it, the fact you call it apprenticeship, you pull in a lot of the things you that you learned as a plumber's apprentice, and and I just thought that was super awesome because I always you think about discipleship and just being a disciple, and what does that mean like on discipleship journey? But I just for me, as someone who came from the industrial industry as well, I'm just used to having apprentices. I was an apprentice in many different areas. So I just I I really appreciate you making that connection because I never heard that before. So when did God give you that connection point? Because that's just a really cool line right there. I think that's gonna resonate with so many people.

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 9:22

Yeah, well, well, for for me, um the apprenticeship terminology was was there, you know, from my blue-collar days. Uh so my father uh is was a master plumber. He's retired now. Um and so I just grew up around the trades. I grew up around that terminology of master and apprentice and journeyman. Um, so it was just in our home, uh in our in our family DNA, so to speak. Um and then I I came across Dallas Willard back in the day who uh spoke about discipleship as apprenticeship. Um, and and it really resonated with me. You know, discipleship is a great word. Uh it literally means uh learner, mathes in Greek just means one who's learning. Um, and and that's accurate and that's true. So um but what I think has happened often in the Western church is discipleship has has been reduced to just like mental knowledge, just taking in information and and having it it be like doctrine or abstractions in in our head. And what I love about the term apprenticeship uh is is the connotation of it, is like your body is involved, right? So to be an apprentice doesn't just mean you you're you're watching the master or just hearing some teaching. It means he's gonna put the torch in your hand and you're gonna have to solder that copper joint, or it's gonna be time for you to pick up the hammer um and and frame the house out. Uh so it's it's an embodied way of understanding. So discipleship uh is is a biblical word or it's a translation from the Greek. But uh apprenticeship, I think, in our modern context, helps us get the understand that the body is more engaged than just the mind. So we want the mind deeply engaged. We want to be thinking people, we don't want to check our head at the sanctuary door. I love theology, I love doctrine. Uh, but this is an embodied way of life, like a fully integrated way of life. And so we are to walk the way uh of Jesus.

Chris Grainger: 11:17

Well, I'm I'm just kind of going back to your apprenticeship days. How long were your apprentice in that the plumbing industry? Obviously, your dad was a master. He he was probably a great one to learn from, but just give them the listeners a little bit of that journey of what that was like.

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 11:32

Yeah, so I mean, two answers to that, like the the longer one and and quite literally the shorter one. Uh, because I was um a plumber's son, you know, throughout my whole childhood, I was learning little little things, you know, during summer breaks, you know, from school, I would be learning how to uh install irrigation systems, you know, fix sprinklers, uh fix toilet valves, you know, all those things, you know, growing up because uh he would teach me or I would I would watch him. Um but then it was after university, um I got I got my degree in literature uh from Colorado uh university, a CU in Boulder. Um and I was playing music and I was uh working at a bookstore, and he's he he for officially asked me, he's like, why don't you hop on the plumbing truck with me um and do this uh officially? Uh it it will be a good way to make a living. You know, he knew that I wasn't necessarily wired to do it for my my whole career, but he knew it would be good training for me. So it was, yeah, it was after university that I hopped on and I did it for a couple years there. Uh well actually um just over four four years uh with him on the plumbing truck before I ended up moving out here to California to become a pastor. And and then, yes, and then when I was with him, it was with him daily on the plumbing truck, watching, learning, observing, um, and then sending me out to do the calls. Wow. All right.

Chris Grainger: 12:58

So so a couple things. Walk us through the call to leave to come to be a pastor, and how you had to take that step. I'm sure that was an interesting conversation with him, right? Yeah, yeah.

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 13:10

So what happened there? Um basically was, you know, at that season of my life, you know, I was newly married. Um, the the music stuff was was was fading basically. You know, that wasn't pursuing that anymore. Um I graduated university with this degree in literature. Um I was really going through this existential, you know, kind of like crisis. You know, do I really believe all the stuff that I've learned for a long time? You know, is this Jesus um really savior? You know, and and so I was I was wrestling through those things. And God was so gracious. He gave me an incredible uh mentor, um uh Pastor Tom uh in from Longmont, Colorado. I'd go to his office every Friday, get off the plumbing truck, I'd go to his office and and I'd complain and I'd whine about my my day job, and and and he would give me his wisdom and tell me to stop whining. Someday this would be a um I would see it as a gift, you know? So we would talk theology and and basically he was mentoring me. He was he was apprenticing me in the way of pastoring, and I didn't didn't really know it. So I was on the plumbing truck during the day, and then I would go see uh Pastor Tom and he was showing me the ways of of pastoring. And so I was, yeah, I was in this existential crisis, so to speak. I was reading everything I could. I was reading, uh I was in the mid the midst of Romans and the book of John, and God just God got a hold of me in a whole new way. Um, everything that was just head knowledge, you know, kind of broke open into my heart. And that's when I say I was I was really born anew, I was I was born again, and uh I felt the call to to preach Jesus. And from that day forward, God started opening doors, uh, whether it was um teaching studies or doing an internship uh with uh Chuck Colson in Washington, DC, um to filling pulpits, to interning for Pastor Tom. Like he opened up a whole new way. And then that that went for a bit, you know, started attending Denver Seminary, um, and then an opportunity came up out here in California uh to plan a church community uh to engage the 20s and 30s in Silicon Valley and uh help them to to meet Jesus and uh applied for the position and uh eventually they called us out here to do that, and we moved out here in uh 2009 to do that. Wow, it was quite the journey. Yeah, I I never would have written it that way, but that's what God had.

Chris Grainger: 15:51

100%, man. Thank you for sharing that. Now let's we'll take our first break and won't come back because I want to um really unpack a little bit more around the plumbers, the apprenticeship, or how that has led to where you're at right now. So we'll be right back, guys. If you're tired of going at it alone, we understand every man needs wise counsel, but finding it can be quite the challenge. That's why we build our leadership masterminds. This isn't just more content, guys. It's real discipleship with a consistent rhythm, uh, small cohorts of no more than seven guys, honest hot seat sessions, and biblical counsel that turns good intentions into action. You'll get accountability, uh, clarity, right, and a circle of brothers who will challenge you and cheer you on. We open up new options regularly so there's room to find the right fit. Uh uh. It's not always easy, but it is worth it. The first step is simple. Take the leadership mastermind assessment. Uh-huh. No pressure, uh, no hype, uh uh, just thoughtful questions to help you see where you are, uh, where God is leading you and whether this is a good option for your next step. Uh hey, if it's a fit, we're gonna follow up with details. Uh and if it's not, uh we'll point you to resources to help you keep growing. Uh either way, uh, you move forward.

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 17:17

Uh-huh.

Chris Grainger: 17:18

So if you're ready to take the assessment, head over to the lionwithin.us slash mastermind. So that's the lionwithin.us slash mastermind to get moving today. So I'm super curious, Heath, as we think about you know, an apprentice. You had years of being a plumber's apprentice. You had a great teacher, right? Well, a wonderful teacher and your father. So, how did like that season of life shape the way you think about apprenticeship to Christ? And like how make that make that tie for the guys out there.

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 17:53

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think this is really important that we have uh a cohesive understanding of what apprenticeship is. And it's really, really important that we understand that apprenticeship isn't just an add-on. It's not like supersizing a basic Christian meal. It's it's not just extra credit or a side quest. It it is the thing. Um, and we understand it's the thing when we really begin to understand what apprenticeship is and how apprenticeship didn't just come about you know with the trades or with the the rabbinical schools in Israel, but it it's baked into the order of the universe. So so here's what I mean by that. Uh there's there's this basic principle about us as image bearers, um, about how we grow, how we change, how we're transformed. And the way um I articulate it, the way that I've thought about it for years, the way that I learned about it on the plumbing truck, and then you know, with with my friend Pastor Tom, and what I've seen in the scriptures, is uh a simple paradigm. Um, a couple words that I I think are really helpful. And those words are union, abiding, obeying, and imaging. So I just walk through those really briefly. So every apprenticeship begins with union, right? It's it's a relational term. There's there's no apprenticing without a master or without an apprentice. So so there's a new reorienting relationship that comes into your life. So for me, that was with you know my father at the point where he's like, why don't you officially be my apprentice on the truck? So there is a orienting relationship that was going to then change the trajectory of my life, change the the rhythm of my days. So that's that's the union. And and that's what we have with Christ. Because of his life, his death, his resurrection, his sending of his Holy Spirit, uh, we now uh are united to him. Paul talks about this all the time, uh, that the Christ is in us, we are in Christ, that that we are united to him, union with Christ. And that changes that changes everything. And it's because now we're united with him that we can enter the the next two words, uh abiding and obeying. So abiding is is simply the the being with, uh being in the presence of the other, watching the other, delighting in the other. You know, it's not just uh what's taught, it's what's caught, right? You know, so there's so much that's caught by just being with with someone. Um and so that's that's the the abiding part. Then there's the obeying part. Um so I wasn't just with my father in the plumbing truck, I wasn't just with you know him in in the working in crawl spaces or the vaults or bathrooms. But I was then to obey what he said, right? So he would put the torch in in my hand and I would solder the the copper joint and then turn the water on and it would blow apart because I did it terribly. And then I'd scramble out of the spray water, turn it turn the water off, and and he'd often laugh and say, Here's what's going on, and then we would rework it. So uh I wasn't just with him watching like some kind of voyeur, I was with him to watch in order to then do the things that he was teaching me to do, right? So that's the abiding and the obeying. Uh and then that leads to the fourth word. So you have union, abiding, obeying, and imaging. And imaging just simply means being like, you know, so you you are now the image of that master. Um eventually I uh took on um the master's skills, you know, in my own clumsy hands, you know, and could do the things that he taught me to do. So I was looking a lot like my. My dad. So in brief, I'll there's a story in the in the book that that exemplifies this. So uh years ago when we had moved into our home here in in Livermore, California, we kind of we gutted the home and I was reworking uh a lot of it. And one day I was under the sink in the downstairs bathroom. I was putting on um a new faucet, and then I found myself laughing under the sink. And that's because it finally hit me. Um so I was laying there uh and uh a realization struck me. Um and and the realization was I've become like my dad. You know, all these years later, all these miles later, there I was imaging the master plumber because I was laying on my back. I I was holding in my hand uh the same kind of wrench, uh the same brand that my dad had used. It was painted neon orange because he always painted his tools neon orange so we wouldn't lose them, you know, in the the ditches of the crawl spaces, which was a cardinal sin in our trade. Um so I had this neon-orange wrench in my hand and I was torquing it the way I saw him do a thousand times. And then I realized here I am, I'm imaging him all these years later because he had called me into relationship. I abided with him, I was with him daily. Um, I caught a lot from him just by being with him, and then he taught me explicitly, and then I was to obey those things until it was in my muscle memory, and now here I am imaging him. And that's that's what human transformation looks like in in this world as God's image bearers. Adam was designed to walk with God, you know, to be in relationship and to do the things he said, to guard, to keep the garden. Um Jesus walks with us so we could uh see what this God is like, so we could abide with him. Um, and then he teaches us how to walk his way so that we would be ultimately conformed to his image, like Paul says. So the paradigm is just my simple words of explaining this larger, deeper, mysterious reality of how human beings change, and it's it's baked into the order of the universe.

Chris Grainger: 23:47

Well, I absolutely love it. Thank you so much for sharing it. I was gonna definitely we were gonna unpack those anyway, so you beat me through the punch, but that's okay. I'm super curious though, for guys listening, you know, the the union of binding obeying imaging makes complete sense, uh, particularly from your apprenticeship days with your dad. We can because we can see that, and we have that that mentor who's walking us through. There's lots of guys that I talk with. There's the disconnect though when it comes to their spiritual walk or when it comes to their church, you know, and maybe where do you see with those four areas? Where what are the biggest stumbling blocks for guys in their walk with Christ trying to figure this stuff out?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 24:25

Yeah, um that's that's a really great question. So uh first, I I would say uh seeing these pieces fit together. So for instance, uh understanding the the teaching, understanding the gospel, the good news that that we don't just have to uh obey in order to then somehow uh uh make Jesus love us or be in relationship with him. That that obeying, right, that that comes because of the union first. So, in other words, like to first people really need to understand, uh, have their imaginations reshaped. What what is this good news? And the good news is that God has intervened in this world, right, through his son, done what we could not do. He's given us his spirit, and so he has established the relationship. He has called us into this life of apprenticeship. And and once we know that that that grace-born relationship is there, then it's out of love and delight and desire that we get to be with him. It's like, oh, I don't I don't have to white knuckle this thing, but like I get to be with him, this this one who changed everything, this one who loves me, who knows me, uh, who sees me. Um and and then it's from that that then we we get to uh obey him. Um so that's the first step I would say is like putting these, helping us understand that these pieces fit together. Because if you were start removing some of these, then it can become a cold legalism. It's just like I have to do this stuff and in order to make God love me. Or there is kind of a cheap grace of like, well, I just get to, you know, abide with him and it really doesn't matter how I live. Well, that's that's not the case either, because he says, if you love me, you will obey me, right? So helping people see how these fit. That that is key. Um another key piece is is living in community, living in a Christ-centered community where you have brothers and sisters who are walking this out, um, who who are speaking the word of the Lord to you, um, having saints who are further along in their journey, you know, walk alongside you and encourage you along the way and remind you of the truth of God's grace in your life. Um, and so so that that's absolutely huge. We need God's word spoken through uh our brothers and sisters. Uh we we need to be in a community where uh all the one-anothers are are being worked out, right? Uh there's so many one another's in the New Testament, and you can't one another on your on your own or in isolation. So, so that's the practicing this this this life uh in in community. So you gotta be uh in a Christ-centered community in which the love of God uh takes on flesh in order to really walk as an apprentice of Jesus.

Chris Grainger: 27:15

Such a good point. Such a good point. And we're recording this like on a Monday, guys. So I'm curious from your from your take, Heath. This, I mean, it's easy to think of like a Christ-centered community on a Sunday or even Saturday, some churches meet on Saturdays, whatever it may be, or a Wednesday night, you know, there's church, whenever the church, the quote unquote church gets together and has some some type of of event. But uh on a Monday at you know, was it 11:30 in the morning here on the East Coast, like where are guys connected that way? Well, how do you what do they need to be to think about apprenticeship and that standpoint?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 27:48

Yeah, yeah. Well, the the gathering on Sunday or Saturday, whenever it is, is is just crucial. And you know, can talk a lot about that, but you that's not what I mean way more than that, right? Just like to your point, like it's gotta be more than just some gathering. Uh, it has to be a community in which you are living your life, like the day in and the day out. Um, and so that can take a lot of different forms. Uh close friendships. Hopefully, there's you know deep close friendships, you know, where you're communicating throughout the week, you're you're calling up a buddy, you're calling up a mentor, texting them, saying, Hey, can you pray for me? It's Monday morning. I feel less than human and I don't want to go into performance reviews today. Like, you gotta help me out. Like, please be praying for me. Uh, you know, so it might be like that. Uh, it might be a small group or a micro group where where you're just you're studying a book together, uh or you're going through some scripture together on a weekly basis and you put it in your schedule because it's important. Like you gotta you gotta keep God's word first and foremost, let that be the primary narrative in your life. And so it's kind of like an accountability group and you're working through things. Uh maybe it's more of like a traditional, what we call like a small group or a life group or weekly, you know, it's a mixed group, maybe, and you're going through, you know, what what the sermon spoke about, or you're you're going through books of the Bible. Uh, but you have to be intentional, right? You have to be intentional about those things because by by drift, we're gonna go into to isolation. In fact, I was just at a men's retreat this week for our church, and that was one of the topics that that was being discussed is fellowship and friendship, because we just drift into isolation and it takes intentionality to step into fellowship, to step into friendship. Um, so that that's an aspect of it. Uh, if if you're you're married and you you know have a spouse and you have kids, that's that's church community. Those are brothers and sisters in Christ, you know, if your f your family is followers of Jesus. And so this discipleship apprenticeship should be happening in the home. The word of the Lord should be spoken of around the table. You should be talking about your journeys together. So the key is to not like have this apprenticeship um be compartmentalized in your life to like, you know, a moment on a Sunday, but actually it's the lens by which you're seeing all of your life through throughout the week, even when you're at work, you know, even if it you might not be surrounded by fellow believers of Christ, you are with Christ, Christ is with you, and you're trying to walk out apprenticeship to Him wherever and whenever you are.

Chris Grainger: 30:27

Well, I'm super curious on the word drift that you just mentioned, because that's where I see a lot of guys at. So, where do you see the drift happening the most? Where is it, you know, maybe where are some blind spots that guys drift that they just don't recognize that you, you know, maybe you've seen you've seen it yourself or you've seen it in other men that you've that you've canceled through the years.

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 30:46

Oh, Chris, that's a great question. Um, there's a number of areas. Um, you know, there is the area of passivity in a lot of men where we want someone else to kind of do the journey for us and bring us along, um, and we don't enter into our own agency that God has called us to. Um so there is a type of abdication um of a lot of men in our Western culture. Um and I don't mean the abdication in like the work sphere, because they're out working really hard, they're doing a lot of things, but I mean as the spiritual leader of the home, um, as somebody who's taking responsibility for the formation of their own soul and and leaning in um to following Jesus. So there's a lot of abdication, a lot of passivity there, you know, blaming others. Um so that's a problem for sure. And it's something that we should all check ourselves and say, you know, where where is this passivity in me? Um and and how is the Lord calling me to lean in, um, calling me to step into the agency he has given me. Uh so that's one area. So uh, and that of course can lead to all sorts of uh destructive drift when you're not intentionally following Jesus with with his energies by the way he's empowering you, man, you just go into really destructive uh places. Um another word that comes up to your question is distraction. Man, we you know we're inundated uh with our our phones, all all the stuff that that's scrolling across our screens, uh all the messages that are coming in, like just the the myriad of options of shows to watch, you know, and hobbies to do. That um, and a lot of those are good things, honestly. There's a lot of good things to do, but the problem is when when we're when we're not intentional about what God is calling us to, all this noise fills our life, and then we just kind of go go with the flow um rather than against the grain of this world. Um, and we find ourselves suddenly in that spot where you know where you wake up one day and you're like, How did I how did I get here? Like I I never wanted to be doing these things. I I never wanted this for my family. I never wanted this for for my my own soul. How did I get here? Um, you didn't intentionally go there, but but you got there because you weren't intentional about the way God was having you go.

Chris Grainger: 33:20

Amen to that. Thank you for sharing that. We'll take a quick break, guys. I'll come back and keep digging in with Heathier. If you've ever opened the Bible and had to thought, where do I even start? Brother, you're not alone. I've had those moments all too often. And I found that having a guide was helpful. And that's why we created the I'm Just a Guy series on the Bible app. They're short, they're honest, and they help you read scripture and walk it out. And these plans speak to the real stuff that we're wrestling with as men, like marriage, anxiety, loneliness, shame, pornography, and so much more. And do this all without pretending or piling on a bunch of self-help nonsense. And lots of guys are using them in their small groups, and they're helping to spark honest conversations and take simple next steps in their discipleship journey. So if that sounds helpful, check them out at the lionwithin.us slash you version. So that's Y-O-U-D-E-R-S-I-O-N. Or just open up your Bible app and search for the Lion Within Us. And it's my hope that these reflections will encourage you in just a few minutes and help you walk with him all day long. So Heath, I'm I'm really curious on this one. And it may be hard to answer, and that's but just hang with me. You know, you've been to seminary, you're a pastor, you know God's word, you're discipling a lot of people. Go back a decade, two decades to when you were that apprentice before you had the seminary understanding. And what you just said, so many guys are passive. You know, they don't they they try to outsource being a spiritual leader. They think that it's being a spiritual leader needs to be someone like you who's been to the seminary and has has the background and understands when to go to Romans versus when to go to 1 Corinthians and you know how to navigate the Bible. For that, you know, 20 years ago, Heath, who didn't have that training, you were still called to be the spiritual leader of your home even then. So, how do you equip the guy right now? What do you tell to the guys right now who are sitting there? That's their reality when they're listening to you. How do you encourage them? What do you what what do you want to say to them in that moment?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 35:43

Yeah, well, I I mean, just 100% what you said. You do not have to be uh a pastor, you do not need a seminary uh degree, you don't have to lead um some kind of official ministry uh by by any way, shape, or form. Every one of us is called to be uh an apprentice of Jesus. Um, and that means every one of us is called to listen to God's voice above all other voices. So that's this practice of scripture meditation. We we're called to lives of unceasing prayer. So I would tell you know, one of these guys um to um to enter into a life of prayer. You're gonna stumble through it, it's not gonna feel amazing all the time, but to be in constant communion with God, just talk with him. Man, just and just just talk with him, talk with him first and most about everything. Like we said, God, good morning. It's Monday. Can you help me? Help me today. Um, man, this traffic is is really frustrating. Like, grant grant me patience right now. Uh Lord, why was I so irritable with my kids? Um, what's going on in my soul? Will you show me what's going on in me? I don't I don't know what's going on in me. Just talk with them. So I would encourage uh the this young man to to prioritize the word of God, um, to um find some tools. I can give him some tools, you know, to to get into the word and walk with them through going through the word. Um talk with God throughout the day. Uh so this all sounds like very pastoral advice, doesn't it? Like read your Bible, pray. Uh, but it's so it's so true. Uh get in a community of fellow believers to walk alongside uh and grow. Um so those are some of the first things I would say. You know, I would point out certain scriptures. Like, you know, in Ephesians 4, we learned that God gives the the leadership of the church, the apostles, the prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers, not to do the work of ministry, but to train the saints to do the work of ministry. And so I would say to him, like, that's you, man. Like you, you're you are a part of this every member mission, right? This is this is an every member mission. He has called you to be an ambassador of his love and his grace, and you have deep, radical, eternal purpose. You know, you don't have to drift aimlessly. Um, and so lean into that, and the Lord will show you um through his word, through his spirit, uh, in a spirit-born community, you know, then won't then walk alongside him, you know, uh, because there's a lot of training and a lot of growth that needs to happen there. But uh, those are some of the initial uh encouragements uh I would have in a conversation like that.

Chris Grainger: 38:17

Well, I think they were wonderful, Heath. And I tell you, just kind of coming back to the book, the chapter that I found the most challenging for me and for other guys probably thinking maybe maybe they were late. I I don't know. But the unhurried presence. I just when I read that chapter, I was like, man, you're stepping all over my toes here. I'm not enjoying this as much as I should be. But uh because it was convicting. I just think that and it's hard. Like we live in this digitally connected world. I mean, you're on the other side of the country. This is just and this is just normal. We you know, we don't even think about it. We just we just and I'm sure after this you'll go to the next, and I'm going to the next, and we just this is how guys roll, right? But that unhurried presence, man, that is a that's a big deal. So so what what convicted you to to write that? And then what where do you find think most guys struggle with this area?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 39:04

Yeah, well, I I live in Silicon Valley. Um and and I understand a lot of the world is is crazy and and hectic. Uh, but like living out here in the Bay, everything is like a 10x. You know, it is everyone's going fast, they're multitasking, you have all your digital tools open, you're just going, going, going. And uh, and I know that culture has been imported all all over the world, but we're living so um so digitally, so quickly. Um the the area I live in, you know, uh sports is is a huge thing, get getting your kids in sports and then making sure your kids have a four-point whatever so they can get into Stanford, which means early age tutoring and extra classes. And and man, people are living on treadmills. We're just living in the blur of it all. And um, it's really, really destructive. So you go back to the writings of of Dallas Willard, you know, John Mark Comer is great on this uh with his book, Ruth's Elimination of Hurry. Um, and so there's a lot of really great material out there um on this, but but the reality is ultimately we were designed to be present to God's presence in our life, um to live in the moment, um, yes, to learn from the past, yes, to have hope in the future, but to be where we are when we are with who we are. Like that's that is an incredible thing. Have you, I mean, I'm sure you've experienced it like when you're sitting with somebody and you're like, wow, this person is so present. Like they are with me. They're not somewhere else, they're not checking their phone, they're not mentally checked out, like they're here and they've they're giving me their time and attention. Something powerful happens. Um, and we have that with God. His presence is with us. So uh to live present to his presence in the moment he has given us, um, that's the way we're gonna become uh people of love and joy. But like think about uh like speed, right? Um when you're going at 90 million miles an hour, um, it's really hard to love well, right? Um, because you you're in a hurry, you don't see the person in front of you, um and everything is just just going way too fast. So uh the I think of the fruit of the spirit, right? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and on. Um hurry doesn't bring about any of those. Like it's when I'm hurried that I get frustrated and that I'm like grumpy with my kids going, Come on, we're late, we get out the door, you know, like where's your energy? Their shoe. Like, why are we doing this again? Like, hurry doesn't bring about any of the beauty of the fruit of the spirit. But being present to God's presence in the moment He has given us does. Um, but it is, it is very difficult because our bodies, like our, they're just our clocks are sped up and we're going. And we have to work. And again, to use the word intentional, be very intentional about slowing our pace down, slowing our breathing down, slowing our thought process down, um, or or else we're just gonna keep keep going and we're gonna miss so much of the beauty that that's right there in the person right that's right before us.

Chris Grainger: 42:18

That's 100%. I mean, and for the guys that are working, you know, and sometimes work pace, it requires that. So what about when they get home? Like how would you what's worked for you? It's just so far as you're a busy guy, you got so many, you're writing, you're preaching, I'm sure you're traveling, got all the things. So, what works for you when you get home to what I call be where your feet are to be where your feet are, right? To be right there with your kids and your wife. Like, how do you do that?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 42:43

That's good, Chris. I like that. Be where your feet are. Um well, so yeah, I have like a 15-minute drive home. And for years, I to be honest, um, I wasn't where my feet were. Uh, I was back at the study, I was back in the elders' meeting, I was back at the you know, counseling session when I walked in the door because I was carrying all that with me. It was just like, you know, I was wearing wearing it like a coat uh and I just walk in the house with it. And I mean, it took me years and honestly, um, a lot of conversation with my wife, some really great counseling with a great counselor to learn how to process some of the stuff better and to get healthy boundaries. So what I would do is instead of just driving home and just thinking about it all and trying to like do voice memo texts on the way home to like squeeze every ounce of work out of every minute I could get, um, it that ride home would become like a debrief, you know, um a decompress, where I was praying and thinking, um, whether it was music or it was silent, I was trying to get my mind into a different place. And then I would sit in the driveway for a moment, which I which I still do, um, and go, okay, Lord, I'm home. Um, you know, help me to be present with my kids, help me to see, and you know, I list the names of my kids, help me to see my wife, um, help me to love them well. I trust you with what was done today. Help me to acknowledge my limitations. You're God, I'm not. So I want to go in and I want to bring um, and John Tyson talks about this an emotional field of joy and peace. Um, I want them to be happy that dad is home, um, not feel the energies of a frustrated dad um who's still trying to fix the world out there and isn't seeing the world right in front of him where his feet are.

Chris Grainger: 44:33

Man, that's a great, great, great insights. Maybe just pull on a little bit more. What about the guys that work from home like me? So I'm 100% remote, a little bit more challenging. So I don't know, have you worked with guys like that before? How would how would you help us guys who when we walk out of our office, we're there, you know?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 44:52

Yeah, yeah, man. You know, and sometimes I do work from home often. Um, you know, I'll I'll work from my backyard in the summer just to get uh, you know, a different uh location, you know, um around me. Uh but it is harder because then you walk right in and there's all the kids, you know, it's it's it's it's all merged, right? Um so I don't know, I guess maybe a simple but but helpful practice, uh, you know, uh if you can because of the weather is like do a little walk, like a little transition, you know, you get done talking with me and and then you're like gonna go take a quick couple minute walk around the block just to decompress and be like, Father, thank you for my time of work. You know, now I want to I I wanna enter back into some some family mode here. I trust you with what we've done. You know, maybe something like that, a little transition of a walk, a certain certainly a little prayer where it's like, all right, Lord, thanks for that. Uh now thanks for what I'm heading into. Um, because often we don't do that. We we don't transition. And transitions are are super important, right? Podcasts, we there's transitions, uh songs, there's transitions and services, there's transitions. But in our life, sometimes we'll just like just smash right into the next thing and carry the past right into the the present moment and and we're not cognizant of of the damage that that that that can do to our family.

Chris Grainger: 46:18

I I love that. Um I just wrote down intentional transitions. I'm gonna I'm gonna do some thinking, some praying, and maybe some writing on that. So that's that's a really good uh particularly for guys who are like me or who, you know, I'm won't transition. I transitioned from one door and it's full dad mode, then it's back into business mode, and then it's farm mode. It's a long story. But anyway, uh one of the things in the book that really caught my eye was the power audit that you talked about, and and and why that's super intentional about doing that. Why do guys need to do that? Maybe so just walk through what does a power audit look like for you and what have you learned from them the most?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 46:52

Yeah, so that comes from the chapter on compassionate gentleness. Um, and that honestly was one of my um chapters that was most impactful for me, something I really needed to work on uh was this compassionate gentleness. Um, because gentleness is is steward stewarding our power with sacrificial love. Um and that might sound strange at first because we think power and gentleness are kind of opposites, but actually, gentleness is stewarding power appropriately. And we all have power. Uh we all have power, and Jesus used his power perfectly, right? Um, and so how are we using the power that God has given us uh for the good of other people? And and so I call people to do uh a power audit. Um, and every one of us has some form of power, right? If if you're a parent, there's lots of power there. Uh uh generally, unless your kids are you know grown and just tall or bigger than you, generally you're bigger than them, you know. Um you have financial power over them, you have the power of of words, the power of blessing or cursing. Man, like what a power to to speak into your kids' life every day. Hey, you know I love you. You know the Heavenly Father loves you. Like He has designed you with such incredible purpose. I see this in you. I see X, I see Y, I see Z in you. Um, I I just I love what I see in you versus like why you why are you being so stupid again? You know, like uh can you get anything right? You know, the power of blessing versus cursing changes trajectories of lives. I mean, there are so many people who are running the rat race out there who are trying to get a bigger house, a bigger 401k, you know, because they're searching for a blessing from a mom or dad that never came. And they're trying to find it in so many other things. So a power of words, powers of blessing. Um children have power, like the power to respect a parent, the power to give them a cold shoulder, the the power to show them love, right? Uh employers, uh bosses, man, so much power um to bless your employees, um, power to see them as human beings, uh full of creative potential, um, or to use them as as objects for for your own desires and your own gain. Like there's power. So yeah, I would encourage people um to to think about you know all the different facets of their life, home, work, hobby, friendship. Um, think about their physical resources, their their own body, their own intellect, their skill set, or their their material wealth. You know, what kind of power does do you have that God has given you? Um, and how can you rightly deploy that for the good of others versus selfish means? And I can I give you one example of that, like for a parent. Love it, love it. Uh so with with children, right? Like um generally like if you have small children uh and you're a big dad, like you got this power there, there's verbal power there, there's physical intimidation and size. And and it can be so easy when you're frustrated to just raise that voice, right? And and to shout, like, what are you doing? You know, whatever it is, right? Um, but so often, um, what you what I just did there uh in our lives, that that that yelling will will be not because we're actually trying to help them. Um we're it's like a pressure relief valve. It's for us. It's like, ah, I just want to get it out because I'm frustrated, but it's actually not helpful for them in the moment. Um, and so I'm I'm using my power of a voice and force there um to to release some energy that that I have rather than do what's good for that that child. Um and so self-restraint and enter into a healthy conversation to then redirect that child and and or or or to to deal with them in a way that's healthy for them, right? So that's that's a power audit. And how am I using the power of my voice and my words and etc, etc.?

Chris Grainger: 50:55

Well guys, I mean if for anything, I thought that one area of the book was so powerful, you know, no pun intended. So get get a go go get a copy there. But I'm I'm I'm curious, there's probably some guys listening that they feel maybe spiritually dry right now, and just like there's not a whole lot there, and they don't feel like they do have a whole lot of power whatsoever. What's that what's a step that they should take towards wholeness and recognizing who they are in Christ? Like how would you you know support that guy?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 51:22

Yeah, you know, at first, um if I was having a conversation with them, I would I would this might sound a little odd at first, but I just talk about delight, um, and and let them know, you know, man, you're striving. Um we we we're all striving, you know, to some degree, shape or form. That's what we do in our in our brokenness, in our need. Like, uh, but there's a heavenly father who loves you, who delights uh in you. And that might sound not sound like the most masculine thing, but honestly, even the most burly of us, the most blue-collar of us, you know, you know, the most callous hand guy who's out there like working uh to be seen, to be known. Um, I would say, man, there's a heavenly father who loves you and he sees you. And I would I would relate the story of, you know how when uh Jesus' baptism, so so there's an order and flow, right? Jesus' baptism, after his baptism, he goes into the wilderness, and then out of the wilderness of overcoming temptation, and then he goes into his public ministry. But here's the flow, and it's so powerful. At his baptism, the father says, This is my beloved son, you know, this this is my beloved son whom I'm well pleased. Um and and so in other words, I delight in him, this is who he is, and it's out of that that he faces temptation and he knows who he is because of the father's love. Um, and then it's out of that that he enters into his public ministry. So many of us reverse that and go, if I just do work really stinking hard, um, then then maybe I can overcome temptation, and then maybe, then maybe he'll love me and I'll be his beloved son in whom he's well pleased. But it begins with identity, and it's out of that identity that the proper actions and affections flow. So that's one of the things I I would say is if you're feeling just like totally, totally dry, uh, and and that you don't have any uh any spiritual power, so to speak, um, like I would first remember uh that you're a beloved child of God. Like look at that beauty and that truth, speak that truth over yourself from scripture. Um, and and it's from that identity that we take the next steps. Um so that's really powerful, honestly, and helping reframe um people's lives and and showing them the love of God.

Chris Grainger: 53:47

Amen. What a powerful reframe. Thank you for walking through that, Heath. I uh I know there's a listener or two out there that's gonna that's gonna be super encouraging for them. So we're kind of getting toward the end of our conversation. We love to have a little lightning round at the end where we just have some fun, we we we go off topic, just kind of make it a little bit easier, lighter stuff, if you will. So if you're willing to play, we'll jump right in. Sure, let's do it. All right, cool. What do you enjoy doing for fun? Do you have any hobbies?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 54:14

Yeah, yeah. So in this season of life, um, you know, I this is gonna make me sound like a real old man, but I love taking walks with my family. I love walking with the kids and and my wife. It's fall here and evening walks. Uh I love it. Uh I I actually love, you know, the older I get, the the more um I love to to cook, you know, whether it's like chopping onions and vegetables and preparing a meal or getting out on the grill or or Blackstone. Uh there's just something so like immediately satisfying about preparing a meal and then seeing others delight in it. So there's a hospitality component. So that's that is a lot of fun. But long range for me, it's always been I I love I love reading. I love uh I love I love poetry, I love writing, putting pen to the page to kind of organize chaotic thoughts or getting into a good story. So and in this season, it's I'm reading Lord of the Rings to my son, who's 12. So every night we we read that together, uh, and it's just such a happy space.

Chris Grainger: 55:17

That's good stuff. Good stuff. Now, when it when it comes to cooking, because the next question was your favorite food. So you mentioned a black stone. So what's your go-to if you and your family are going getting together and you want to uh have a good time?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 55:28

Oh yeah. So uh right now I would say uh we do this chicken swarma where my my wife marinates chicken and all these incredible spices, you know, and then I I cook it all up on the black stone. So it's kind of like chicken kebabs, basically. Um, and then we have all the Mediterranean, like the vegetables and hummus and saziki, and I and I love Mediterranean food. Every time I go to Israel, I'm just I'm just enjoying the food like crazy. Um, so I think that's our favorite thing currently. Uh the kids love it, my wife loves it, and it it's a family favorite. So I look forward to doing that one.

Chris Grainger: 56:06

Nice, nice. Well, you mentioned music was a passion for you, Heath. So what's your go-to band? Like what if you're if you get a chance to to to go see anybody right now, who would you go, or anytime, really? Who would you go see and why?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 56:18

Oh man, that's that's a tough one, Chris. Uh my my music tastes uh are kind of all over the map right now. Uh so I would say one of the things that I mainly listen to in this season of life is a lot of instrumental, a lot of like uh ambient instrumental. Um, and there's just thousands of great artists, you know, on Apple and Spotify. Um and I just kind of follow that rabbit hole uh because because I'm doing a lot of writing, a lot of sermon prep, you know, a lot of reading. So so I get um that the instrumental in the background are my my uh headphones uh at a coffee shop. So that's that's great. Uh I'm kind of an alternative rock guy. I'm a rock guy. Uh, you know, I I guess uh technically I'm a Gin Xer. So uh all that alternative rock has has been um you know a mainstay for me. Um bands like uh Mute Math, you know, I love Jeff Buckley's stuff. So to go, you know, throw back. Um but yeah, I don't know. Does that help?

Chris Grainger: 57:22

That's very helpful, man. Very helpful. I love just to see where you're going with it. All right, well, we'll we'll transition for you. Uh maybe not easier, but a more funner one. How about uh a superpower? So we got all these different Marvel and different types of of comic books growing up. If you could have a superpower, which one would you have and how would you use it?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 57:42

Okay, so uh initially my brain goes back to the superpower I wish that I had when I was a little kid, which is telekinesis. I just thought it would always be just super cool to be able to like move something from across across the room. Maybe that was because when I was little, I wish I could, you know, mess with people that way, or just you know, maybe there was I was lazy and thought that would be cool. Um but um now, you know, um yeah, telekinesis still would be pretty cool. Um you know, I I for me though, like uh learning right now, like I I I wish somehow there was a way um to to deepen my learning, maintain my learning, not forget things. So almost like a photographic memory or just anything I read, it would stick and stay, and it would just be a part of my life versus going now, what in the world did I read? You know, what was that thing? You know, why am I forgetting these things? So maybe it would have to do with learning.

Chris Grainger: 58:45

There you go. There you go. I want to uh Al Moeller, uh, I think he has a photographic memory, and it's it's just unbelievable that the types of things he can recall and come up. But anyway, yeah, I'm with you. It for me, it's and sometimes it's just like I can't remember yesterday much. That's what I read last year, you know. So it can be a challenge. Yeah. How about how about any habits? Uh have you started anything recently, or maybe it's something you've been doing for a long time. We always just try to encourage our guys with you know how to improve your mind, your body, your strength, you know, marriage, whatever it may be. So any habits that come to mind that you'd like to share?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 59:18

Yeah, so um, you know, the the workout schedule, uh it was always a little bit elusive, you know, with with my work and with the family, you know, because often I will be out in the evenings for for events and things. Um, and so I was always trying to find what would work. Um, and but in this season of life, um what works best for me with it with the kids, you know, getting home, hanging out with the kids, putting the kids to bed, then having some some quiet time, um, you know, or some time that we can, my wife and I can focus on the things we want to focus on. I, you know, I'm working out now in the evenings. Excuse me. And that's been working out really uh nicely. The evenings that I can't, you know, I'll try to compensate in the in the mornings, but um my mornings is gonna be more of like a quiet time for me, like study, reflection. Um, at least in the season, getting up and running hasn't worked for me, and then doing quiet time and then getting to work, it just uh almost feels rushed somehow. So I like to work out uh in the evening and put my earphones in and just listen to some good music and work out. Um but then in the flip side, yeah, the morning is getting up um and making a good cup of coffee and sitting there uh staring off at the horizon uh and then getting in God's word. So pretty basic. But if I don't have man, if if I'm not hearing God's word, um it I'm I'm not having um a really good day, you know. It's just like eating, right? If I'm not eating, my body's gonna feel it at some point. If I'm not feasting on God's word, my soul is definitely gonna feel it and I'll I'll be edgy, I'll be frustrated, you know. So I I need that in the warning.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:58

Love that, love that. Just kind of pulling on that that thread a little bit more. What is your favorite thing about God?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 1:01:06

Oh my um You know, I I uh there's what's called the transcendentals, uh beauty, goodness, and truth. And he's he is the source of all those. He is beauty, goodness, and and truth. Um and so uh the fact that he would be willing to share himself with us, you know, is just uh is mind blowing. Um the fact that he placed us in this beautiful creation, although yes, it's broken and and in need of great repair. It's so gorgeous and beautiful, and there's so much of his grace uh that comes uh you know in this common way through the through the creation uh that's amazing to me. So I I mean just the overflow of his kindness to us, I think, just uh amazes me. I feel like a little kid in this big, wide, wonderful world, like whoa. You know, just whoa, this is amazing. Uh so yeah, his kindness, his kindness to us is is probably my my favorite thing.

Chris Grainger: 1:02:11

I love it. I love it. Now let's flip it 180. What's your least favorite thing about the evil one? Oh man.

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 1:02:18

Um taking the the things meant for good and flourishing and distorting them to ruin, like how he mars, how he vandalizes God's goodness, um, and takes things. I mean, it's it's everywhere, man. He takes these things that are meant for for good, you know, faithful relationships, beauty, uh, the human body, and he twists them um and to to bring us destruction. Uh so uh his vandalism.

Chris Grainger: 1:02:52

Yeah. Last one of the lightning realm, and you've done great, is what what what do you hope our listeners remember the most from our conversation today?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 1:03:05

One that that God is a good God who who delights uh in in his children, he's not a cruel taskmaster. Um, and that uh apprenticeship is is baked into the the essence of reality. Um so if if we want to be conformed to the image of Jesus, this is union abiding, obeying, and imaging. Um, and it's something for all of us.

Chris Grainger: 1:03:27

100%, Heath. So where do you want to send the listeners to connect with you? I'm sure you've got a lot of great content materials out there. Obviously, we're going to get them a copy of the book. They need to go buy that right now on Amazon. But where where do you want to send them?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 1:03:40

Well, the a simple place is heathhardesty.com or heathhardesty.org. So yeah, just my first and last name.com or dot org. They both go to the same place. Uh, and there there's links to all the different sites for the the book, podcasts, you know, all those things. Um, Valley Community Church, VC.church is the the church that I pastor at. So sermons are all all there. Um, and then yeah, you already said it, but the the book is it's on Amazon. Uh the whole wherever books are sold thing uh is is true. So Barnes and Noble, etc. Um, uh that would be a good place to start to get into my head and my heart is is get into the book.

Chris Grainger: 1:04:21

Love it, love it. Are you on any social media platforms that you'd like for them to connect with?

Pastor Heath Hardesty: 1:04:26

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh Instagram is the main one. Uh uh yeah, so just Heath Hardesty. Yeah, at Heath Hardesty there. Uh I'm on Facebook too. It's the same Heath Heath Hardesty. Yeah. Okay, awesome. Was there anything else you'd like to share today, sir? Uh just a big thank you, Chris. Thanks for what what you're doing. Um, helping uh men lead by following Jesus and and love well. So uh this was a joy. I've been looking forward to it. Uh excited about uh your your book that you got to work on. And uh just uh may the Lord uh bless you and all that you set your hands to, Chris. Amen.

Chris Grainger: 1:05:03

Thank you so much, Heath. It's been an honor, sir. You got it. Thank you. All right, guys. I told you this was gonna be a fun one. So super thankful for uh Pastor Heath for coming on. Just really enjoyed working with him. So, question of the week this week is what's one area where you feel like you've stopped being teachable? Like we all reach things in life where we feel like we can't, maybe we've mastered it or we can't don't learn anymore. And that's a dangerous mindset, that's a fixed mindset. We don't want to have that, especially as I walk with Christ. We have to be continually be growing. But maybe there is somewhere in your life that you feel like you're well, I just can't be teachable anymore. And if once you recognize it, then that's identification, then you can start course correction. Okay, so thank you again to Pastor Heath for coming on the show and for sharing. Uh, ratings and review help, fellas, for sure, if you get a chance to do that. Big thing though is head over to thelionwithin.us, check out all the resources from the Bible app to our daily spiritual kickoff to our community, put in an application for the leadership mastermind to see if that would be something that would serve you well. We just we have lots and lots of ways we connect, we serve with guys, fellas. So you know, hopefully, thelionwithin.us, you'll be able to find everything there uh in a meaningful way, one place to get connected, all right. So, our fun Friday, you know what's coming, fellas. We've got we'll we change things up in 2026. Hopefully, you're enjoying this new format uh with the different types of guys from the mastermind. So looking forward for you guys to hearing uh our guest on Friday. So come on back, we'll see you then. Thanks for listening, and just keep unleashing the lion within. If you're like me, you don't need another book just sitting around collecting dust. What I enjoy is something to help guide me when my feet hit the ground in the mornings, and that is why we put together Unleashing the Lion Within. It has honest stories, scripture you can apply, and simple steps to help you lead at home, at work, and everywhere in between. So if you've been feeling stuck or scattered lately, you may find this resource encouraging. Read a few pages, take one step and watch what God does with your obedience. Hey, and if reading's tough for you right now, no problem. The book is also available in audible version so you can listen on the go. So if this sounds interesting, check out the lionwithin.us slash book or search for unleashing the lion within directly on Amazon. So there's no pressure here, just a resource that many guys are finding helpful. So grab the format that fits and take your next step.