Chris Grainger: 0:53

Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders, God intends you to be. I'm your host, Chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, guys, meet episode time. Let's get into it. Okay. So the scripture of the week this week is Psalm 37, the fourth verse. Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Okay. So took some time to unpack that verse at length. So if you hadn't had a chance yet, go and listen to the spiritual kickoff episode where I unpack that, try to give you some ideas on how you can simplify and apply that to your life. Okay. So this episode is going to be a fun one, fellas. My guest today is Jay David Mack. Okay. He has authored 25 Bible commentaries, fellas. And he writes from a Jewish viewpoint, but he really focuses on helping Gentile believers see scriptures through the eyes of the Jewish people who lived it and wrote it. And it's been an absolute honor to work with him. Over 30 years ago, he encountered a messianic Jewish teacher, and it changed the whole world for him. It changed the game, and he really completely leaned into it. I got to meet uh or got connected through Mr. Mack through the Jewish Road podcast. You guys may remember we had those guys on uh last year, had a lot of fun with them. So lots of fun things. We really unpacked discipleship. What is this? Not just a concept of discipleship, how he truly does discipleship, what works for him, what doesn't work for him, what we should consider from our own walk on how we can walk this out. So hopefully you guys are gonna get a lot of practical advice from this. And I can tell you one thing the resources on his website, they're phenomenal. Okay, check them out. So Beyond Ministry, uh, he spent his his the bulk of his career as a high school history teacher, and he was also big in coaching. He was a head football coach, and he even uh coached some college football in San Diego. So he's now in Tennessee. He's retired with his wife, and he's working on some uh book of Proverbs, and he's pretty pumped. He's got like big plans, future for 10 more books in the future as well. So sit back, enjoy this conversation. You may want to get your pen and paper out because there can be a lot of notes you can take for this conversation with Mr. David Mack. Well, Mr. Mack, how are you doing this morning? Doing great. Doing great. Good to see you. Looking forward to this conversation for sure. And uh, I'm super pumped. We we got connected because of our friends over at the Jewish Road Podcast.

David Mack: 3:23

Yeah.

Chris Grainger: 3:24

Well, I really I thoroughly enjoyed that one. And before we get into it, maybe tell us something fun about you, sir, that maybe not many people know about.

David Mack: 3:33

Well, I was a classroom teacher for 44 years and uh football coach. I coached for 20 years. I coached uh I was a head coach of three high schools and coached in college for six years. So uh my my my students normally call me Coach Mack. You know, Coach Mack, uh Mr. Mack seemed a little formal, and the the seniors wanted to take me out for a for a brewski after after class, which is couldn't do that. So Coach Mack was kind of in the middle, you know, kind of enduring, but not not too uh too personal.

Chris Grainger: 4:10

I hear you. I bet you so you really like that coaching, sounds like that. That's been a lot of fulfillment in that.

David Mack: 4:16

I did, uh, but it's a young man's game.

Chris Grainger: 4:20

Yeah, fair enough.

David Mack: 4:21

And uh very time consuming. But while I was doing it, uh I I enjoyed it.

Chris Grainger: 4:27

Do you still enjoy watching football now?

David Mack: 4:30

Yeah, I'm I'm kind of a fan. Uh we moved from San Diego to to the Nashville area, and when we moved, I declared myself a free agent fan. Okay. So my team is who's ever in first place, and I'm always happy. Uh, I don't yell at the TV and throw things at the TV anymore, so I'm I'm happy.

Chris Grainger: 4:51

Free agent fan. There you go. Well, share a little bit if you don't mind, sir, just about your your personal uh discipleship journey, like how it started, where you're from, just kind of get our listeners to know you a little bit.

David Mack: 5:06

Well, I was raised in a secular family. Uh my uh my mother was raised in the Quaker church, and they don't they're very personal with their faith. They don't really talk about it at all. We never had a Bible in our house. The Lord's name was never mentioned. Uh really the only time we went to church is when we visited my grandmother, and then we went sometimes to church with her. But but basically, um I was raised in a secular home. When I was in my 20s, there was uh a Lutheran church close to us, and and uh I thought, you know, for the kids, I had a a boy in junior high school and a and a younger daughter, four years younger. For the kids, you know, we should take them to church. And I I had no church background, so we were going to this Lutheran church, and they asked me to teach the the middle school students because I was a teacher, and they assumed I was a believer, and so uh they they came to me and I had a son that was junior high school age, so they came to me and asked me to teach the class, and I said, You have to be teeny. I said, I don't know anything about the Bible, and they said, Well, that's okay, because we have these booklets, and you just have to stay one page ahead of the kids, and and I was a teacher, so I was a professional at staying one page ahead, so I thought oh okay, I'll do that. So, in doing so, I had to fill out the blanks and read the scriptures and look up scriptures, and and I don't have the the Bill Gother stake in my front yard telling me what what day I was told, but I started that class in September, and by June I was just a different person, you know, I was a new person in Christ, and uh so I have a very, very, very high regard for God's word because uh that's what and and and the Holy Spirit that's what led me to the Lord. I don't, you know, um it was my mother's mother that we went to see, and my and my mother just in August 28th celebrated her 100th birthday. And so periodically, last year, you know, I go out and stay with her for a while, and she had this book up in her study on on Quakers, and she said to me, She says, You know, I always I always mean to read this book, but I never get around to it. So I said, Well, I'll in the evening, I'll read you, you know, um every evening. So as I was reading this book, I realized that they're lousy on doctrine. I mean, they don't it's it's doctrine is really secondary. The main thing was um the the the prayer. Now there's a difference between the Quaker Church and the Friends Church. The Friends Church is evangelical, and you and you have to make a profession of faith, but the Quaker church is not. One time we went up and visited my aunt and uncle in my when when my son was five, my aunt said to me, She said, Well, you're a birthright Quaker. And I said, What does that mean? She said, Well, you know, your father is a Quaker and your mother's a Quaker, so you're a Quaker. So it's the and the in the Old Testament, it's like the Jews were saying, Well, we're children of Abraham, you know, we're in because we're Jewish. So, anyway, I'm reading this book to my mother, and I realized that you know, I don't my mother never talks about the Lord, the Lord's never on her lips. So I I said to her, I said to her, I said, Mom, tell me about your testimony. And she says, I don't know what you're talking about. I said, Well, tell me, you know, the time and the experience when you accepted Christ. And she and she says, I've I've never done that. And I said, Well, mom, you need to do that, or you know, you're gonna go to hell. I said, Do you want to do that right now? Accept Christ right now? And she said, Yes. So at 98, I led my mom to the Lord. Because she always talked about, when she talked about church, she taught she had like 22 cousins. She always talked about the social life of the church, you know, the the potlucks and playing with her cousins and stuff like that. It was never the Lord, right?

Chris Grainger: 10:10

Wow. So that personal relationship was never there.

David Mack: 10:14

No. And and as a consequence, it wasn't there with me. Right. You know, growing up.

Chris Grainger: 10:21

Right. Well, you mentioned it like what did you call it? You were when they when they said because you were your mom was a Quaker, they were a Quaker when you were born, you were like like a birthright Quaker. I almost think it's it's easy for lots of parents with kids now. That's almost that mindset is is easy for the Christians as well to think that that well, my mom and dad are Christians, so naturally I am. I grew I went I went to church, right? I mean, that's I I hear you guys talk about that a lot.

David Mack: 10:54

Well, I say just because you sit in the garage doesn't make you a car.

Chris Grainger: 10:59

That's a good way to put it. It's so true though, right? I mean, yeah, we we go to the fellowship, we do the things, we you know, we kind of we go to the potlucks or whatever it may be, but at the end of the day, it's about that personal relationship with God. And somehow, maybe it's the evil one, it just he he blinds us to blinds him, blinds him, yeah. Wow. Well, I guess with your story, there's there never give up. I mean, if your mom accepted Christ at 98, I mean, what an incredible testimony that is.

David Mack: 11:32

Yeah. Yep.

Chris Grainger: 11:35

Wow, wow.

David Mack: 11:36

And my dad died um lost. Uh he was he was angry. I had he at the very end of his life, my mom took care of him with within the they were married 70 years, and my mom took care of him the last until the last four days of his life, and she said she called me, says he's fallen down, I can't get him up. So I go over and we put him in the car and take him to the VA. And he was so mad at me that I took him to the VA that he said, I disown you, you know, cut you out of everything. I but my mom just couldn't take care of me anymore. But he died, he died uh unrepentant and un and unsafe.

Chris Grainger: 12:26

Well, that's unfortunate for sure. But I mean, hats off to you though for not giving up on your mom and and for just leaning in that way. And sounds like God has done some pretty incredible things with you and your testimony as well, which led you to kind of creating all the resources you had. So can maybe can you tell us how that the genesis of that and how that started?

David Mack: 12:48

Yeah, I have um a website, uh jmack.net. Uh when I was growing up, I was always David, and we moved and the teacher asked me my name, and I don't for some reason I said my full name, Jay Mac, J David Mac, and she already had five Davids in the classroom, so she says, We'll call you Jay. So I thought that was really cool. My mother wanted to kill me, but I thought that was I thought that was really cool. So um I was Jay through high school, college, and teaching until except for my family, my family, my sister, and my grandparents and everybody still call me David. But when we moved out here to Nashville, we didn't know a soul, so I said, you know, I think I can I can become David again. So I when I started my point is when I started my website, it was I was still going by Jay, so it's J Mac.net. And I started uh I was uh a teacher in a Christian school at the time, and I started a study just for me on Isaiah, it was just for me, and I shared it with some people, and I started with putting him on a CD. And somebody said, Well, that's not very smart, you should put it online. So I started uh a website, and um when I was in the in 1980, my wife and I were going to a Calvary Chapel in San Diego, and the pastor invited in this Jewish guy named Arnold Kirkmanbaum, and when he spoke, it was like everything else I had ever heard about the Bible was in black and white, and he spoke in technicolor. So I was very, very, very interested in that, and um got his resources, and uh at the last five years before we moved out here, we went to a missing at congregation um Autoreo with uh Rabbi Barney Titan, who's a prolific writer, also. So my website basically is uh for Gentiles. The target audience is for Gentiles who want to approach the scriptures from a Jewish perspective, which I which I find increasingly that um people are Gentiles are anxious to discover the the roots of their faith. So I've written uh 25 commentaries. They're they're devotional in nature, they're not academic in nature. I mean, I use some Greek and Hebrew only when it's necessary. I don't fire hose people with Greek and Hebrew, but um they're devotional. I mean they're the the the the audience white think of when I'm writing as a person that has just been divorced or found out they have cancer or they're problems with their children. So it's it's it's uh devotional in nature. There's a prayer on every file, and uh so I I believe that the the Old Testament looks forward, the New Testament looks back, and that's the whole thing with the Jewish road, the same the same kind of thinking and and so um I write both both testaments. You know, I think that those Gentiles today who uh ignore the Old Testament are it's to their peril. I I I I view the Torah as our blueprint for living, and Torah was never meant to save anyone, but you know, um if you the closer you follow Torah, the better your life's and the further from Torah you you go the the more problems you're gonna have. And that's true for for believers or unbelievers. You can have an unbeliever that unwittingly follows Torah and their life's gonna go better. And you can have a believer that violates everything, and they're gonna end up you know in the pokey.

Chris Grainger: 17:13

I think it's interesting how you know, since you know Ron and Matt as well, they just talk about as many Christians New Testament only and basically just throw the Old Testament or set it to the side. I mean, we we may go read a proverb or a psalm from time to time, and then you know, conversely, you know, the Jewish, they they know New Testament, Old Testament only, and you're you're missing both both halves are missing it if you don't tie it all together. It's just it's one congruent story. But man, it's just I'm so so I'm very encouraged that you take the time, you're making that connection as well for lots of people, it sounds like.

David Mack: 17:50

Well, I disciple my granddaughter, who's eight, and uh a while ago I I said to her, her name's Kitty, I said, Kitty, I said, what's more important, the New Testament or the Old Testament? And she stood up very proudly and said, the New Testament. And so I said, Well, Kitty, what's what is more important? Your left hand or your right hand? And she said, Well, both. I said, Yeah, both. Both. And that's like the New Testament and the Old Testament. They're both important. And you really can't understand the Old Testament until you understand the New Testament, and you really can't understand the New Testament until you understand the Old Testament. So that's a big theme of mine, is uh both.

Chris Grainger: 18:35

Amen. Amen. Well, let's take our first break, Mr. Mack, and we'll we'll come back and we'll dig into that discipleship a little bit further. Trying to find genuine resources to help grow spiritually can feel overwhelming. At least it was for me. For the longest time, the support that I was looking for didn't exist. And I knew I wasn't alone, and at the same time, God was leading me to take action. That's why we built the Lion Within Us Community, which is simply a place for Christian men to grow together in an honest, practical way that's always rooted in God's word. We've made it simple. We have our daily spiritual kickoff for that little boost to get you going. We have Bible studies focusing on discerning truth and applying it. And we have a private forum where you can speak freely amongst other gods who listen. And then we have things like Friday Forge Couples Night, where we've got to tackle the hard items that gods are craving to talk about. But most face things just refuse to explore these areas. So our community is about a growth mindset, intentionality, and transparency. Simply put, leave the mask at the door and come back you are. No perfect resume, just a willing heart and a desire to lead. I believe in what we've built, simply because I've seen God use it to strengthen so many men. And I'd be honored to walk alongside you. So if you're ready, visit thelinewithin.us to explore the community. Start your free trial. Look around and see how this could help you lead with clarity and courage. So your journey begins here at thelinewithin.us. I look forward to seeing you inside the den. Well, Mr. Mack, you you mentioned that you disciple your granddaughter, which I think that's awesome. We need to see more and more guys leaning into that, but just that whole that idea of discipleship often gets missed. And what I found super encouraging the first time I went to your site is you have a whole section dedicated to discipleship. So why why the effort and intentionality there, first and foremost?

David Mack: 20:55

Well, I have led several people to Christ and discipled them. And those people that I have discipled are like my children. I mean, you you develop uh such a such a close relationship um with them, and it's almost like you have a baby and you send him out into the woods and say, Go get him, tiger. You know, and and how and a baby wouldn't last very long in the woods. In this world that we live in today is is uh very vulnerable to false doctrine, false teachers, lust of the eyes, the luck of the flesh, you know, the whole the whole thing of this world. Oh I found that when you disciple someone, your ministry is just amplified so much because that person and before I disciple them, I say, okay, I we're we're gonna enter into this discipleship, and my only requirement is that when we're done, you disciple someone else, right? You you you commit to discipling to find someone else as a disciple. So I just think that's how the church is built. I mean, uh and solid ground is is discipleship, right? And uh so many people today are not disciples. They're not.

Chris Grainger: 22:41

I think it's a gaping, it's a gaping hole. I think too often, yeah. I mean, we're we're we're all about seeker-friendly messages and trying to get salvation, which I I totally get it. We gotta get people saved. But if at that point, I think your your analogy about putting a baby in the woods is perfect. I mean, what what are we doing here? I mean, we have to we have to encourage them uh and and help them in their walk.

David Mack: 23:04

And equ equip them right to what they're gonna face, the challenges that they're that they're gonna face. Um it it's important to know who we're making disciples of. You know, who are who are we discipling? And it and we're discipling um believers. We're we're not we're not discipling unbelievers. We're trying to win unbelievers to the Lord, but once that happens, we're discipling believers. And it doesn't matter the age of the of the believer. There's believers that are 40, 50, 60 years old that have never been discipled. And they need they still need they still need to be disciples.

Chris Grainger: 23:48

Oh, very much so. I think the churches are full of 60 and 70 year olds that, quite frankly, are baby Christians.

David Mack: 23:54

Exactly. And because of their age, many people listen to them and they may have bad ideas sometimes.

Chris Grainger: 24:02

Right.

David Mack: 24:03

They say, well, you must be uh you know a very wise person because you're you know you're you're of your age, and they're like a one-year-old or two-year-old as far as as far as the Lord being in the knowledge of the Lord and the scriptures. So um we start with believers, and the first thing is their identity in Christ, they have to understand who they are in in Christ. And I am a tremendous advocate of the security of the believer. Okay, and unless people understand that, um, they can be uh led astray, you know. Um there's a there's a there's a church near me that teaches you can lose your salvation, believers can lose their salvation, and uh that's that's uh fertile grounds for Satan to come at you. You know, Satan has two plans, two plans. One is to prevent someone from becoming a believer, but if somebody becomes a believer, his backlog plan is to make them ineffective, right? And the way that they make them ineffective is to doubt their salvation. They say, you know, Satan comes to them, he says, Well, believers don't have that thought, believers don't look at that, believers don't do that, and because they doubt their salvation, they're kind of a neutral, they you know, they don't feel confident enough to win someone else to Christ to lead a Bible study. Right. To be to be an example to others just by the way they live their life. So the first thing is their identity in Christ, and that they're secure and that they're in Christ, and there's a union between the believer and Christ, and he is in us, and we are in him, and there's there's no abortions in heaven, and we we cannot lose our salvation. Um, and then we go into prayer, which um many people view as uh Jesus says Santa Claus, you know, and it's it's my job to ask for stuff, and it's his job to give me the stuff that I ask for, yeah. Not not to not to line our will up to his will, and so um we spend time on a whole you know session on prayer and prayer life.

Chris Grainger: 26:55

Um I'm glad you mentioned the session piece. I'm super curious. So like when you when you because just for practicality speaking, how does discipleship work with you? How have you done it in the past? Is this one-on-one you guys are sitting down for for like set meetings and you set the schedule out? Like what does that typically look like?

David Mack: 27:14

Yeah, I mean it's it's gotta be, in my opinion, one-on-one. When you're with a group of men, if if you have five or six men and you're doing a discipleship, nobody's gonna say, you know, I'm struggling with pornography. That that's probably not gonna happen in a church setting, you know. So we set up a time like normally an hour, but it's not okay. Sometimes it goes over. Uh the last guy that I disciple, we met at Panera, and uh we just had like uh normally for me it's in the morning. Like I usually normally get up at four or five o'clock in the morning. So somebody says, Is seven too early? It's a no. So we meet at seven or eight or nine, you know, we we meet uh and a specific day of the week, you know, not inflexible. If something comes up, we can meet at another day, but it's one-on-one, it's for a specific period of time in a relatively quiet, not too uh crazy environment so we can talk and bring your Bible. And uh what I ask them to do is to view the lesson that we're going to be talking about before they show up. Like if we're if we're gonna talk on prayer, I ask him to go to my website and either print out or just read the uh the uh session on prayer so that he's got some background, and then we can talk about prayer and give examples in my life and his life and and and in the Bible about prayer.

Chris Grainger: 29:20

And so it yeah, it's it's one on how many sessions is it typically when you think about discipling someone? How is this a year, two years, like what or a couple months? Like what what does that look like typically?

David Mack: 29:34

It's uh like four 14 weeks. Sometimes you know, something uh either myself or the other person comes up that we have to skip a week because there's some emergency or something. But generally it's about um 14-15 weeks. Okay, good. Generally, generally that that's that's about it. Um I when we I was recycling this last individual, uh I went I went to Israel in 2023 with Kold O D with another congregation I was attending, and um we went for the the festival of Sikol and we left on uh October 6th, one one day before the war started. And uh we came back and I was recycling one of the guys from Cold D, and I and I I wore a baseball cap with the fellow David on it, and I had the guy come up to me and thank me for supporting Israel, and he was uh an unbeliever, and uh we fin he sat down, and then there were three. Of us for the last two meetings, and he was just listening. And then after I was here with an individual from C, he he wanted to keep meeting. So he and he and I continue to meet to this day. He's uh not saved, he's Jewish. He started off by saying he was agnostic, but he's now reading uh Genesis and has no problem with me talking about Yeshua or anything else like that. So um in this case, there's no time limit. You know, we just I mean, and he and you know it's I'm just trying to earn the right to be heard by him. I'm not I'm not pressuring him or anything. Uh I just I'm trying to befriend him to be his friend. And if he never comes to the Lord, I'm still gonna be his friend. He's not he's not my pet project. I'm sincerely befriending him. Uh and last week he he invited me uh over to his house to meet his wife and children.

Chris Grainger: 32:06

Okay. So I think we're making you're making progress there, it sounds like for sure.

David Mack: 32:12

But I'm saying in that situation, it's no there's no time limit on it.

Chris Grainger: 32:16

Right.

David Mack: 32:16

But with the disciple, and and in reality, if I get through with the person discipleship, the formal discipleship, and they wanted to keep on meeting, you know, I would continue meeting with them.

Chris Grainger: 32:29

Right. I think that what you what I see on your site and and the gap that you're filling, many guys I think are open to the idea of discipleship. They just get nervous or or don't, you know, we we like a framework. Guys need a framework or a path or some structure, and it's just it's hard to find that out there in a practical way.

David Mack: 32:52

It is, and to be truthful, mine here is more from a Jewish perspective. Um because I I have uh a session on scripture, but then I have a uh a session on the dispensations uh of God and the eight covenants because Jewish believers need to know the the eight covenants. Um but you're right. There's at least there's a shortcut, and and the reason I made up my own, I couldn't find one. It was it was it was tough, it was tough to find one that had all the elements in it that I wanted in it.

Chris Grainger: 33:37

Wow. I mean do you find by going through that? I mean, are there any particular areas that you that you've built that are harder for you know, maybe for guys to grasp, or you had to get more questions, or or just just very curious on that?

David Mack: 33:54

Yes. Um is hard because they think, you know, I just I'm not an evangelist, you know. And and I'm saying you don't, yes, there is the gift of evangelism, but you can live your life that uh somebody would be interested in you, you know, see a difference. You know, you can do that, and I say at least you can tell them your testimony, if nothing else. You know, you you may not know the Romans Road and everything else like that, but nobody can deny your own testimony.

Chris Grainger: 34:43

That's right.

David Mack: 34:45

So you can tell them your testimony, but the other thing that I do is uh I do talk about doctrine uh just because I think that the average Christian is illiterate doctrinally, but we do I go over spiritual gifts.

Chris Grainger: 35:05

Um how do you I'm curious because we just uh finally it's interesting. My wife and I were our uh sermon we were at yesterday. The pastor was talking about spiritual gifts, and he passed out a little we he printed out some things where you could do an assessment, and we're gonna we're doing an assessment. How do you help guys walk through and understand spiritual gifts? Is there any resources you've built there? Because that's a that's a tricky one that I feel like. It is. Yeah.

David Mack: 35:30

It is, it is. Um I'm a uh I don't know what you call it, non uh I I don't believe that all the gifts are are current today. Um I'm not a tongue's guy. And so in my own beliefs, I go through and I say, okay, these are the gifts that are these are the these are the scriptures that tell about the spiritual gifts. Um last week I was discipling Kitty and I asked her, she's only eight, but I'm I said, Do you have any idea of what your spiritual gift is? You know, and she said, Yes, it's singing. And I said, Well, honey, that's that's a talent, but there's a difference between a talent and a spiritual gift. So so that the next time we meet, we're gonna go through the spiritual gifts for her. But so I I go, I said, some are there are lists in the Bible that in the first century there were all the spiritual gifts in these lists, all of them, all of them were there, and but I said, but but now there are some that are still active and some that aren't. And then I I I just I have them I give a definition for each one. So I said the gift of of uh administration. So I I answered a paragraph on what that looks like, or the gift of of mercy, and there's a paragraph on what that looks like. So we just we just go through those, and I say, you know, you have to try out some gifts. I mean, you know, the main thing with spiritual gifts is two things. It's gonna bear fruit, and you're gonna be excited about it. Okay, so without any without any spiritual fruit, it is not a spiritual gift. I I was in a church one time where they had a middle school ministry, and this guy was the man, he was he was going crazy. He had like 200 middle schoolers, they had a praise band of all middle schoolers, and it was a my son who was in the middle school, really liked it, you know. And that that guy got a pastorship at another at another church, and the pastor of that church had a son-in-law who thought he was a teacher, and he put him in charge of that middle school group, and that middle school group within three months was down to about 20. Really? He did not have he did not have that gift, yeah. So, what I'm saying is you will be excited about it, and it will bear fruit. But and so you need for mature believers to come alongside of you and give you feedback. Do you see fruit in what I'm doing here? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Grainger: 38:38

When you do that assessment for yourself, I'm I'm I don't want to make assumptions. I obviously from what I've seen, I think one of your gifts is teaching, but what what where do you think some of those lie for you?

David Mack: 38:50

Uh my I believe that nobody has all the gifts. And I believe that people normally have a primary strong gift and a secondary gift that's not as strong. So my primary one is teaching, my secondary one is uh administration. Administration, yeah.

Chris Grainger: 39:12

Being able to structure and put those things together for people.

David Mack: 39:15

Yeah, yeah. Um but the another one, the the other one besides um sharing your faith that's difficult, you know, I I have the last session, the last session that we have is on husbands and wives. Okay, and I I see so much, so many problems in the church today between husbands and wives, and the divorce rate is as high in the church as it is outside the church.

Chris Grainger: 39:47

And and so before you before you dive into that, let's take a quick break because I'm very curious on what your findings are there. We'll be right back, guys. If you've ever opened the Bible and had the thought, where do I even start? Brother, you're not alone. I've had those moments all too often. And I found that having a guide was helpful. And that's why we created the I'm just a guide series on the Bible app. They're short, they're honest, and they help you read scripture and walk it out. And these plants speak to the real stuff that we're wrestling with as men, like marriage, anxiety, loneliness, shame, pornography, and so much more. And do this all without pretending or piling on a bunch of self-help nonsense. And lots of guys are using them in their small groups, and they're helping to spark honest conversations and take simple next steps in their discipleship journey. So if that sounds helpful, check them out at thelinewithin.us slash uversions. That's Y-O-U-D-E-R-S-I-O-N. Or just open up your Bible app and search for the Lion Within Us. And it's my hope that these reflections will encourage you in just a few minutes and help you walk with him all day long. Well, Mr. Mack, you said that husband and wives, that whole session is it can be very challenging. So please unpack that because we got a lot of guys listening who are married for sure, and I'm sure this the ears perked up when you said that.

David Mack: 41:29

Well, men go to Ephesians and they say uh wives should submit to their husbands, and that's and and then they full stop. Full stop right there, you know, and so you have so many, and they or they don't even read it, they hear it, you know, and they so they don't have any context. If they read it, then there's context in Ephesians 5, but if they hear it, there's no context. And and they say uh you know to their wives, you know, when I sit down, don't look for a chair. You know, when I say just do it, you know, I'm the boss around here, and you're supposed to submit. And and unfortunately, what husbands do when they do that to their wives and they don't make them partners, is they just crush their spirit. They just annihilate their their the spirit. They're you know, they you get these wives that they get married and they they love their husbands so much, and uh and and I've seen unfortunately so many times that with this domineering, I'm the boss, you submit, they just uh grind it, grind their wives into the gate. So the the key uh for the husbands is to love your wife as Christ loved the church, and that unlocks everything because how the question is okay, how did Christ love the church? There there is would he was there nothing he wouldn't do for the church? No, he would die for the church. Um you know he was he he was uh a servant to the church, and so some somehow that idea that the wife is supposed to submit and the husband is supposed to be the servant, how does that work out? Well, around the around the turn of the century, uh a guy with it with a pen name of O'Henry wrote a story called The Gift of the Magi. And there was the wife who had they were very poor, and Christmas was coming up, and she had very, very long hair, very long hair. That was her prize, was the long hair, and the husband had a watch that was given a circular watch that was given to him and is passed down over generations that was his prize, and so the wife, because she loved her husband so much, she went to a woman and had her hair cut off to make a wig so she could buy, get the money to buy her husband a chain for his watch, and he sold his watch to buy combs for his wife's hair, and so that is how it works. You know, you have two givers, you don't have a giver and a taker. You know, you have a giver and a taker, the giver thinks, you know, if I just keep giving and giving and giving and giving, eventually this my my spouse here is gonna see that that's the way to do, and then my spouse will start giving to me, and that doesn't happen. If they're a there, if they're a taker, they're a taker. And so and and and so the the giver has one of two choices. Either once they realize they're not gonna get anything back, they they just are unhappy in their marriage, or they get a divorce. So with men, if you when you serve your wife, that is much easier to submit to, much easier to submit to. Um, and so that's kind of the symbiotic relationship between the two. Now, I will say this the man is in charge of what goes on in the marriage. In the garden, God put Adam in charge of the garden, and and he just stood there and watched his wife sin, and then he sinned, and so he got the leader following and the fellow follower leading. That's right, but but the man is supposed to be in charge of the marriage, and that means you're responsible. Now, if there's no responsibility, that's fun to be in charge. Whatever happens, I don't care. There's no consequences for me. But if there's consequences, it's you know, it's it's like you're in a restaurant and the thing blows up and the owner comes in and says, Who's in charge here? You know, you know, me. So so the man is in charge, but he's responsible for what goes on in the marriage, good or bad.

Chris Grainger: 47:06

Right.

David Mack: 47:08

So if you know, husband and wife need to talk things over on decisions. Well, the husband being in charge of the marriage doesn't mean that you know he demands bananas rather than peaches at the supermarket and she's got to buy bananas, you know, it's that there's give and take. The the Lord gave the man a helper for a reason. For a reason. So he's supposed to listen to her. It doesn't mean that he's any less encouraged if he listens to her. Takes her, you know, men and women are you know, surprise, they're different, and and they have a different outlook and different sensibilities, and women's intuition is a real thing. That's right, and and so you listen to your wife, and you you know, in the course of a marriage, you make compromises, and you talk back and forth. But if you come to a big decision and you can't agree, the man is in charge of the relations, you know, he he's responsible right for what goes on, and at that at that point, like I'm talking about spending fifty thousand dollars, forty thousand dollars on a car, buying a house, moving, you know, big decisions in life, um then he if if there's a if you can't come to an agreement, then God puts him in charge and responsible. Now I I talk in terms of this last lesson about relationship and responsibility. There are many things in the relationship that you're equal, equally saved, equally dependent upon the Lord, equally sinful. You're you're to defer to each other uh sexually. Um, so there's all these things they're equal, equal, equal, equal, equal. But then when it comes to the responsibility, you know, eve first, but Paul says in Romans that through one man sinners and enter the world. Through one man. So the man is responsible for what goes on in the marriage, and at that point, he's he's gotta make the decision what's best for his family. But those those types of things hopefully don't come up too often. Normal the no the norm should be that you're having discussions with your wife and uh deferring to she defers to you on some things. Like my wife is tremendous on uh the budget and and figures. I'm not a math person, you know. I thought trigonometry was a planet, so she does she does all that. I do more of the our long range in investments, but uh she has skills that I recognize that I have to defer on her, and she has and I have skills that she recognizes and she defers to me, and so that's the way it should go back and forth uh in a loving relationship. If you get this man that's domineering and says, I'm the boss, and you are the the servant, and you got to do everything I say, then you're in trouble. And I think that also goes to just you know, leader leadership. It seems in our world we have a leadership vacuum, and most leadership is not servant leadership. You get a business or something that is servant leadership, it's very, very unusual these days. My son worked for a big company, which I will not name, that is definitely not servant leadership. They're just they squeeze every ounce of everything you have out of you and would cut you in a new minute.

Chris Grainger: 51:43

That's right. It's very common out there, it's very common. I'm I'm I'm curious on when you do disciple the people and have worked with them. Have you ever had moments where they disengage or it's just things aren't clicking, or has it seemed like because they've asked and they're wanting this, they're they're leaning in.

David Mack: 52:04

Yeah, I've never I mean there's times that they don't understand. Okay and we have to spend maybe a little bit more time on one aspect, but um I've never felt uh just um disconnect or apathy at all because they they they want to be there, you know, and and quite quite honestly, when I started, I've never had this happen, but I would imagine that if somebody thinks they want to be discipled, and then they get into it and they're going, whoa, that's you know, that they would tell it, that would show up pretty quickly.

Chris Grainger: 52:42

Right. How do you assess like when when you're done, you know, what's what what's your what's your takeaway when you when you finish discipling someone and you feel like they've gotten it, or maybe there's some areas you need to touch back on. Like just what's your assessment to know that you feel like you've done your job?

David Mack: 53:00

Well, I I check back in. You know, in in in in teaching, it's called in the classroom, it's called check for understanding. So you you can teach something, but then you need to check for understanding and ask them questions and see if they've gotten it. So if the person that I'm discipling is in my church, I can observe them, you know, and and casually talk to them. If they're not in my church anymore, I can uh what I do is I text them, phone them, check in with them, and and see how they're doing. Now they can lie to you, you know. They can they they can be in trouble and and wonder and not want to disappoint me, you know, right, and stuff, but you can only do what you can do. Um, I discipled uh a young man almost 20 years ago, and uh guess when I was uh he was an assistant coach of mine, and he has a son now. So questions that I ask him um what book are you studying right now? He lives in another state, right? So what what book are you studying right now? Uh who have you discipled? Are you spending time with your son? Have you discipled your son? Why not?

Chris Grainger: 54:37

Right. Right.

David Mack: 54:41

How are you doing? How how is your marriage doing? How are you how how are you doing with your wife?

Chris Grainger: 54:49

No softball questions here. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you look ahead to the future, what do you think the if you could be an advisor to the to the to the big church and actually have them listen, what what do you think the church should do to make an impact here?

David Mack: 55:08

Well, they have to be intentional. I mean, they just can't assume that this is happening going to happen organically. They need to have a discipleship program. And not only, you know, you can have a program, and people can say, you know, oh yeah, we got this program, but I'm not real one for this. But you need to have people going up to people, especially, especially new believers. I mean, it it's it was almost a thing it should be in a church where they say, you know, now that you're saved, we're gonna hook you up with this person here for discipleship, you know, men on men on men, women on women. Um, but they have to be intentional. So you need to you need to have people walking up to people and and kind of really challenging them a little bit, you know, say, have you been discipled? Right. What what's preventing you? Do you do you want to be discipled? And they go, uh, you know, but well, why? You know, what's preventing you from being disciples? It's important for you to be disciples. Because the Bible says to make disciples.

Chris Grainger: 56:23

That's right.

David Mack: 56:24

So if if you know, are you disobedient? Do you view that you're a disobedient Christian? If you want to get hardballed about it, you know, you could say, you know, that's what the Bible says, and are you doing that? Are are you know, and then once again, there's there's uh momentum to this in it in the church where you say, Okay, I'm gonna disciple you, but you have to promise me that when we're done, if you are gonna find somebody to disciple, and then you're gonna disciple them. So there's a multiplication effect that's right within a church. And and I I I personally believe that it really has to come from the pulpit. Things that come from the pulpit are important, and so if the pastor is up in front saying, listen, folks, discipleship is important, it's biblical, we want to be a disciple-making church, we have this ministry, this person's in charge of it. If you want to, you can talk to this person for men, talk to this person for the women, and and not just have it be a once-a-year thing. That the pastor, you know, talk talks about that. Not every week, but it needs to be a fairly common thing. That you know, if you're not discipled, you need to be discipled. Find somebody else. We we have a we have a program for you. We have a program set up just for you.

Chris Grainger: 58:07

Right. And the cool part is you would never finish because if you finished going through the program, now you are the instructor.

David Mack: 58:13

There you go.

Chris Grainger: 58:14

Let's see it.

David Mack: 58:15

And it's very satisfying, you know. I mean, it's it's uh some people can say, you know, I'm really I've never really led anybody to the Lord. You you ask people, how many people have you led to the Lord? You know, they it it it's tough. But if you can say, you know, you should be able to disciple someone if you you know, or or be disciple. You can be discipled.

Chris Grainger: 58:48

Amen.

David Mack: 58:49

You know.

Chris Grainger: 58:50

Well, Mr. Mac, when we get to the end of our conversations, we always have a little lightning round just for some fun, random questions. So if you're willing to play, we'll have a little fun here at the end.

David Mack: 59:01

Shoot.

Chris Grainger: 59:02

All right. What how about a favorite hobby? Anything you enjoy doing for fun?

David Mack: 59:07

Uh I like to walk with my dogs. We have two 150-pound dogs.

Chris Grainger: 59:13

And so big dog.

David Mack: 59:15

Big dogs.

Chris Grainger: 59:17

What breed is that?

David Mack: 59:18

Some people have have yelled at me, get a saddle.

Chris Grainger: 59:23

What breed are they?

David Mack: 59:24

They're called um Lanseers. They're European continental type Lanseers. They're they're watered, they kind of look like Newfoundlands, but they're a European breed, and they're uh they're water dogs like uh like Newfoundlands. But I'm I they're kind of spectacular. You walk you walk into uh a store with with with them and they get their pets. Believe me, they get their pet.

Chris Grainger: 59:53

That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Uh what our favorite food, Mr. Mack, what what's your go-to?

David Mack: 1:00:00

Uh you know, as I get older, my my uh I used to like spicy, but spicy doesn't like me anymore, you know. So so I kind of like uh uh uh Panera uh salads.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:20

Uh fair enough. Fair enough.

David Mack: 1:00:27

I like pastas and stuff, so gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:33

How about uh if you look back over the last year, did you spend too much time doing anything? Well, always like to just learn from from from other people, like you know, time wasted, you know, just curious. Anything pop up?

David Mack: 1:00:46

Well, yeah, I spent too much time in the garden.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:49

Really?

David Mack: 1:00:50

My my my wife is a gardener and she had big ambitions, and so we have like 16 raised bed.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:59

Oh wow.

David Mack: 1:01:00

And we have two acres. So it's like a farm. Yeah. And there's there's always something to do on the farm. So I I'm 78, and I I tell her my my expiration date for gardening is 80.

Chris Grainger: 1:01:19

She's got two more years of gardening. That's it.

David Mack: 1:01:23

That's right.

Chris Grainger: 1:01:24

She better start start canning.

David Mack: 1:01:27

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But uh and I don't know. I try I try, I mean, she helps me with I I'm not good with technology, and she's a genius with technology, so I call her my my I IT department. So so uh she helps me with that, and I help her with the garden. That's our like our our reciprocal freed agreement.

Chris Grainger: 1:01:58

There you go. There you go.

David Mack: 1:02:01

But I'm trying to work myself out of a job if anything.

Chris Grainger: 1:02:05

Well, you've given her plenty of notice, so she has two years, right? That's true. It's not a surprise. That's not a surprise. What about when you think about God? What is your favorite thing about him, Mr. Mack?

David Mack: 1:02:19

The fact his that his his forgiveness of me. You know, I don't have uh a testimony that you know I was a big drug addict or I was a thief or anything else like that. My my life was pretty mundane. Graduated from high school, graduated from college, started teaching, coaching, went to seminary, did a did a church plant in Wisconsin. But you know, basically I didn't have this horror, you know, you hear some some people uh with their with their background are horrific, and I didn't have that, but I know me. And I and and I know how wicked, you know, my I am and the sinner that I am. And there are times in my life where the Lord where I could have just been wiped out just completely wiped out and not being the position that I am in today with a ministry and a family and the way my family looks at me and views me could have been completely the opposite, and and I just am amazed with the grace of God that He loved me so much that He died for me and allows me to have the ministry that I have. I just I just thank God every day for being able to have uh the ministry that I have and the check that I have on other people that I have. And I know that without him what I would have ended up doing. My least favorite is uh E. Um I've read the book uh what was that the uh one where the demons screw tape letters? Screw tape letters. I've read screw tape letters, so I know that I'm being watched and he knows my weaknesses and I am I don't know about constantly, but I know that he is chipping away, he is attempting to chip away at my at my weaknesses. So I like that the the least, you know, I like that the least the thing I like the best about Satan is that he uh is not very not very original and the and the and and the things that he does are kind of predictable not very very original. But as far as the things that I dislike the most is that he knows my he has his scouts out and he knows me and I have to continually guard against those areas that he knows are my weaknesses.

Chris Grainger: 1:05:40

Last question for you, Mr. Mac is what do you hope the listeners remember the most about our conversation today?

David Mack: 1:05:50

That there's uh God that loves you and we just want to uh know him better and love him more, but you need to be discipled. If you haven't been discipled, you need to see someone out in your church or somebody somewhere there's people out there that will disciple you and find them and be discipled and start the the ball rolling and purpose in your heart to disciple someone after you're a disciple. It will be some of the greatest times you have in your life, some of the greatest uh victories in the Lord that you'll have in your life, and it'll be so fulfilling to you that you'll want to do it again and again.

Chris Grainger: 1:06:43

Amen of that. Well, Mr. Mac, where do you want to point the listeners, particularly ones that are on fire now, ready to go start this for your resources? Where do you send them?

David Mack: 1:06:53

Well, my website is jmac.net, j-a-y-m-a-c-k.net, and uh I have several books there, and at the bottom right-hand corner, I have discipleship ministry. And you can open that up and you can you can uh print it off. I don't care if you make copies, so long as nothing's being sold, and uh start discipling from them.

Chris Grainger: 1:07:26

Amen. Amen. Well, guys, go be sure to check that out at jmack.net. Love all the resources. It's been an honor, Mr. Mack, talking with you. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for Matt connecting us and uh prayer prayers for you and your ministry moving forward, sir. I appreciate it so much. All right, fellas. Well, I told you it was gonna be a great one. So thankful for Mr. Mac for sharing. Question of the week this week. Where are you confusing fellowship with true discipleship in your life? Again, we kind of talked about this a little bit with Mr. Mack. Again, fellowship is one thing, and I'm all for it. You gotta have that fellowship. You gotta have that time to grow together as people, as individuals. But discipleship is where the rubber meets the road, okay? So hopefully this gives you some insights. Go check out his website again, uh jmack.net, all the resources that he has there. I promise you, you're not gonna be disappointed with that. Other than that, fellas, if you can give us a rating and review, that would be helpful. But big thing, head over to delinewithin.us for all the resources from a daily spiritual kickoff to our community to all the different ways we try to serve and help and connect with guys. We have our leadership mastermind. If you think that that's something that you would be interested in learning more about, hey, we have lots of resources there for you to check out and see if that would be a useful part of your own personal discipleship journey, okay? All right, fellas, have a great day. Thank you again for listening, for hanging out with us. Come back on Friday. We'll have a fun Friday episode for you. Have a great day. Get after it, just keep unleashing the lion within. If you're tired of going at it alone, we understand every man needs wise counsel, but finding it can be quite the challenge. That's why we build our leadership masterminds. This isn't just more content, guys. It's real discipleship with a consistent rhythm, small cohorts of no more than seven guys, honest hot seat sessions, and biblical counsel that turns good intentions into action. You'll get accountability, clarity, and a circle of brothers who will challenge you and cheer you on. We open up new options regularly so there's room to find the right fit. It's not always easy, but it is worth it. The first step is simple. Take the leadership mastermind assessment. No pressure, no hype, just thoughtful questions to help you see where you are, where God is leading you, and whether this is a good option for your next step. Hey, if it's a fit, we'll go follow up with details. And if it's not, we'll point you to resources to help you keep growing. Either way, you move forward. So if you're ready to take the assessment, head over to thelionwithin.us slash mastermind. So that's thelionwithin.us slash mastermind to get moving today.