Chris Grainger: 0:53

Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men. Who are hunger to be the leaders God intends you to be. I'm your host, Chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, fellas, meet episode time. Let's get into it, okay? So scripture the week this week is actually in the book of 1 Kings, the 19th chapter. It's two verses, but they are kind of long. But it's important to keep these verses together, okay? It says, So he said, Go out and stand on the mountain before the Lord. And behold, the Lord was passing by, and a great and powerful wind was tearing through the mountains and breaking the rocks into pieces before the Lord. But the Lord was not in the wind. And after the wind, an earthquake. But the Lord was not in an earthquake. And after the earthquake, a fire. But the Lord was not in a fire. And then after fire, after the fire, rather, a sound of a gentle blowing. Love those verses, guys. Look, if you want to know more about that specifically, go and listen to the spiritual kickoff episode. That's just be one back in your podcast feed where I took some time to unpack these verses so we can simplify and apply them to our life. Okay. So hopefully you guys enjoy that. And again, if we do a daily spiritual kickoff at The Lion Within Us, that's a free way that we just try to encourage you each and every day. So to go to the LionWithin.us and start your daily spiritual kickoff or join the community. Hey, you get 30 days free to check that out as well. All right. All right. So, fellas, this is going to be a good one. So, Dr. Kelly Flanagan. Uh, some of you guys may have heard his name before. He's a coach, he's a licensed clinical psychologist. He has two decades of experience, fellas, and I totally, absolutely just thoroughly enjoy this conversation for him with him, rather. Uh, he's very well known as in thought leadership. Uh, he's been featured on the five love languages. He's been on the today's show. I mean, this guy's it's incredible. He's got two books uh out right now, fellas. And and he unpacks for us today. We talk about being lovable. What does that actually look like? And before you like, I don't want to hear about this. I'm gonna tell you, bro, this is not some watered-down feminized version of a conversation. This is a real authentic two guys just being real with each other, and I think you're gonna really enjoy this. So, I mean, he's out of Illinois, he's a dad, he's a husband, he's just living life, and I absolutely thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with him. So hopefully you will too. So sit back and enjoy this fun time with Dr. Kelly Flanagan. Well, Dr. Kelly, welcome to the line with Dennis. How are you doing today, sir? Oh, so good to be here, Chris. I'm doing great, thank you. Well, I'm looking forward to this conversation for sure, and we always try to start off kind of like Dr. Kelly with something fun about you that maybe not many people know about. So you got any fun things going around this uh not many people know that Dr. Kelly does?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 3:38

One of the first things that comes to mind is I am uh married to a woman who is also Dr. Kelly. Really? Okay, yes, yeah. We met on the very first day of graduate school at Penn State. Um, she wrote her mom an email. We still got a copy of it. It says, you know, I met this great guy, but his name's Kelly, so it can never work out. And uh and so I joke that I overcame more than the average number of hurdles to marry a great woman. And uh she took my last name, so she became Kelly Flanagan. They're spelled exactly the same way. We got our PhDs together, so now we are Dr. Kelly and Dr. Kelly. Um, and uh it creates all sorts of problems at airport security, but uh it makes for a good conversation starter.

Chris Grainger: 4:19

I can't imagine. I can imagine. Wow, that is great. So, I mean, in Penn State, so I've been watching my my oldest is a uh volleyball player. You guys got a good volleyball team there, Penn State, as well. Yeah, we do. Long tradition, yeah. That's awesome. That is so great. That's so great. Well, thank you for sharing that. That definitely is a fun fact. I don't think we'll we'll run across something similar. I definitely haven't so far. So uh love to hear a little bit about you, your you know, your background, how you came to know Christ, just a little bit about your personal testimony.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 4:52

Yeah, well, I mean, I guess I can tell you a little bit more about my name. Um, so uh Kelly was actually my my father's drug dealing alias when I was born, and so he he gave me that name. Um, they gave me that name, my parents. Um, and when I was around the age of two, my little sister had just been born, and uh my dad was arrested for felony drug possession, and um my mom was home taking care of two young kids, and uh he came to Christ in in a jail cell while she was coming to Christ outside of the jail cell at the very same time, and um and that sort of launched our family's faith journey when I was when I was really young. Um attended assembly, we attended assembly of God church at first, um, until maybe I was in fifth grade, and then uh switched to a uh first church of the Nazarene. Um in I I went off from high school to college. I quit attending church altogether. Uh, and then I got to grad school, met my wife, Kelly, and uh she was she was attending a Catholic church, and I was like, I'll do anything to spend time with this woman. So I started going to Catholic Mass with her. Of course, I couldn't take the take the Eucharist or anything. Um eventually in graduate school, we wound up attending um at first a Christian Missionary Alliance Church, and then uh and then ultimately uh we ended up at a Baptist church at at State College because we had some some friends in our cohort that were attending that church. Um and uh and then later we moved to Wheaton College. She became a professor at Wheaton College in the psychology program, and we became members of the Christian Missionary Alliance Church. Um now 10 years ago, we moved out of the Chicago suburbs. She quit her job as the as a professor and um and uh moved out here to rural Illinois uh to start uh serving underserved kids and families uh by running a community mental health center and uh and the church we attend now is an Episcopal church. So we have we have I over the course of my life, I have sampled pretty much the full the full buffet and uh and uh it's been a beautiful journey.

Chris Grainger: 6:58

That is uh that's incredible. I am super curious too. You mentioned, and the only reason I bring this up because I hear it's pretty common with guys, I'm very interested in your take on it. When you you were in church a lot growing up through high school, but then you said there was a break. You went to college and you didn't go. Why do you think why why was that what there was a gap? That's a common gap that I hear with guys. Common gap.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 7:21

Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, the honest answer is probably that church had been had not been coming alive to me for many years. Okay. Um, you know, Christ hadn't been alive to me in a real way in a number of years. Um most of my early church experience was more fear-based um than otherwise. And so I think I was just waiting for an opportunity to not get woken up on a Sunday morning, to be if I'm being honest with you. Right. Um I yeah, I would say that like the uh the faith that I own as my own faith and not the the the faith that I was inheriting probably didn't start until until graduate school, um until my wife and I started attending that Christian Missionary Alliance church. I feel like that was the first time I got up on a Sunday morning to go to church because I wanted to. Um so so yeah, I think that gap was more a byproduct of um, yeah, yeah, several years of of just sort of wishing someone would leave me alone on Sunday morning so I could sleep in.

Chris Grainger: 8:27

Well, a lot of it too is you know, you have your programs for kids, for youth, and things like that. And then once they get out of that certain age, you're just part of the the body in many cases, and you know the groups don't exist. I don't sometimes I I don't know, guys miss that. And so I don't know. It's it's very interesting though, that that's definitely a commonality.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 8:49

I I I I always needed my intellect satisfied, um, and I and I struggled with that just strictly from a church basis. And uh actually, so the the foundation of sort of getting reconnected with my faith in graduate school was laid in undergrad when even though I wasn't going to church, I was starting to go to the bookstore and grab everything that C.S. Lewis had ever written, right? Uh and and and ways of thinking about faith that were starting that that made sense to me that I could get my head around. Um then I started grabbing Philip Yancey's books off the shelf, you know, and I was like, oh wow, I can I can have doubts and still be a person of faith, right? Um and oh Henry Nowen, oh my goodness, I I can I can have I can have things I don't know, I can have mystery and I can still be a person of faith. So um so yeah, it was interesting. These authors, I feel like, were really the ones that laid the the foundation for me to um to re-enter the church in a sense. Um and I and I hope that that's a part of what my writing does for people too, is an invitation back into the church if the church is something that they have not felt is accessible to them for a while.

Chris Grainger: 10:00

You know, I totally appreciate the C. S. Lewis shout out. Anytime we can talk about C.S. Lewis on the show, it's always a good day. It's a good day. Right on. But what stirs you? I mean, obviously, something stirred in your heart to write this wonderful book called Lovable, and which I absolutely I love, no, no pun intended. But uh what stirred your heart to do it, to write that?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 10:21

Well, I mean, you know, the first book an author writes is uh but you know, it's been stirring for a very, very long time. Uh so I published it in 2017, um, and it was probably it had been almost a decade since I had what I I really consider like my spiritual awakening, in which I I really felt like I experienced in a in a deeply emotional, spiritual, and bodily way my own belovedness, um, that I was beloved of God unconditionally, um, and that I wanted to um share that message with the world. Um, first of all, I wanted to share it in my home. You know, I wanted to change the way I was showing up to my kids and to my wife, who I was loving very conditionally at that point in my life, and I wanted to embody that message in my in my household. But then uh I discovered that I I had this long-lost passion for writing that I didn't know about and and I wanted to share that message in my writing. So I started blogging in 2012, and uh and one of the early letters to my daughter went viral. Um actually, my first blog post that went viral is called Marriages for Losers. And actually that the the concept of that post was um, you know, Jesus preaches such an upside-down gospel in the Sermon on the Mount, right? Um Blessed are the blessed are those uh who are poor in spirit, blessed are those who mourn. Um and I thought, what would it look like if we lived the upside down gospel in in marriage and both people were competing to lose, to surrender, to sacrifice, to care for and tend to, rather than always trying to win. So I wrote that blog post Marriages for Losers, inspired by the Sermon on the Mount, and um that went viral. And then a couple of letters to my daughter went viral, one about how she's inherently worthy of interest and she doesn't need to go around proving her interestingness to people, um, but to to to look for people in her life who can just naturally celebrate how interesting they find her to be. Um and then I wrote a blog, uh, a blog post, a letter to her that went really viral. It's called uh Um Words from a Father to His Daughter from the Makeup Isle. And it was about how her um she she's beautiful on the outside and in the inside, but her inner beauty is an eternal kind of beauty, and uh that I wanted I was encouraging her to care about that eternal inner beauty. And that went really viral, and she and I wound up on the Today show. And I wound up actually, believe it or not, all these years later, my boss at the time was vacationing with Philip Yense, one of my uh, you know, Christian author uh heroes, and uh and and Philip Yense saw the show, saw my daughter and I on the today show, and connected me with his agent, who I continue to work with till this day. And uh, and and she taught me how to write a book, and that book ended up being Lovable, uh, which was published, you know, here again about what are we going on? About eight years ago now. Wow.

Chris Grainger: 13:21

Wow. And man, so so God was was was definitely moving in so many different areas.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 13:27

So many ways.

Chris Grainger: 13:28

Yeah, that that's incredible. So maybe talk to us, you know. I I'm super curious, I got so many notes here. You you started off so saying that some of the the foundation of that journey to get you to lovable is was because you had conditional love for your wife. And I'm sure there's some guys out there that don't may not understand exactly what you meant by that, but could you you know explore that a little bit? Because I think that would be very relevant for a lot of our listeners.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 13:54

Yeah. Well, the the um the way that that I get my specialty by the way in in my clinical training was um was marriage, communication, and conflict resolution. Um and so what I what I sort of learned over time is that um early on in a relationship, uh our the reason we choose to marry someone is because they make us feel a certain way. Right. That's that's the main reason that we end up marrying someone. You made me feel this way for the last six months, twelve months, two years, whatever. I want to be married to you and live with you forever, so you'll keep making me feel that way. Right. And they don't. They don't keep making us feel that way. Now I'm gonna I'll be very uh specific here and personal, I don't mind that. Um my wife, when you when you are in front of your wife, my wife, you feel like you're the only person in the world. Like she, her, her attention, her capacity to care for you and and pour into you is incredible. Um the the flip side of that is that when you're not the center of her attention, you can feel like you ceased to exist, right? So this was great for me. And then we had children, right? And then they became the center of her world, and all of a sudden I was feeling left out, alone, neglected, abandoned. Things that it turns out I was carrying with me into the marriage, but didn't realize it. Um and now all of a sudden, um, I will love her on the condition that she starts to make me feel like the center of her attention again, right? And that she she she shows up in the way that I want her to. Um but uh it's a terrible way to try to change people to love them uh conditionally. It doesn't it doesn't tend to engender engender the response you're looking for. So um so our our relationship by that point had become very contentious. Um you know, I was communicating constantly that she was disappointing me and how she was showing up, and um that's a that's a terrible situation for a person to live in to be being told that constantly. Um and so um all of a sudden I had this moment where I discovered I'm loved unconditionally by the God of the universe, like it's taken care of. Like my my my wife doesn't have to do that for me now, right? And uh and so therefore I'm now freed from this pattern and I can I can love her unconditionally as well. And um and as everyone knows, that sounds great in practice. Um, but you know, really a a marriage is the lifelong sort of practice of learning how to do that. It's not it's not getting it right overnight and getting it right forever. It's going, I want to love you unconditionally, and oh my goodness. Look at all these ways, I still fail to do that. But my my project's different now. It's not to get something from you, it's to grow into a more and more perfect love for you.

Chris Grainger: 16:48

Right. Almost too sounds like there's a little bit of a shift. I mean, I lots of guys they view their marriage as contractual versus the covenant, you know, and if you do this, then I'm gonna do that. That's it, that's contractual type thinking versus no matter what I do that the covenant says. So it sounds like you you had that revelation in the course direction towards the covenant.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 17:10

The yes, the I would say that's I think it's true of all of us. It's particularly true of me. I'm an Enneagram three. Um the the transactional nature of my of my my love was was sort of uh a light was shined on that. And uh and and you start to realize that if love is transactional, it's not really love at all, it's a trade. It's a deal. It's a deal. Um and uh and I wanted to get out of that transactionality, and you know, here like I said, here we are 10, 15 years later, and I'm still working my way out of it.

Chris Grainger: 17:44

Amen. Amen. What now's a good time for our first break guest, guys? We'll be right back. If you're like me, you don't need another book just sitting around collecting dust. What I enjoy is something to help guide me when my feet hit the ground in the mornings. And that is why we put together Unleashing the Lion Within. It has honest stories, scripture you can apply, and simple steps to help you lead at home, at work, and everywhere in between. So if you've been feeling stuck or scattered lately, you may find this resource encouraging. Read a few pages. Take one step and watch what God does with your obedience. Hey, and if reading's tough for you right now, no problem. The book is also available in audible version so you can listen on the go. So if this sounds interesting, check out thelionwithin.us slash book or search for unleashing the lion within directly on Amazon. So there's no pressure here, just a resource that many guys are finding helpful. So grab the format that fits and take your next step. Well, Dr. Kelly, I'm super curious. You you mentioned a couple of your blogs went viral. I'm very curious about the one with your daughter from the makeup aisle. I read it, I thought it was incredible uh for sure. I just released uh a uh study on the Bible app, and uh it's called I'm Just a Guy Raising a Daughter. And uh it's funny because it literally just came out like last week. They they finally released it. And uh I'm curious the feedback you were getting from the blog, uh from the types of things like more specifically the feedback from men on that one. So just just walk me back because I'm sure it was kind of overwhelming that that that really took off so well, but I I can only imagine what you heard from it.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 19:40

It was amazing, and and this this really the reaction I got to those letters really did form the foundation of Lovable in the sense that like I mean it was being read by millions of people a week. It was going that viral. And I I I assumed that the you know the the the the response and I was getting I mean literally hundreds of emails a day, and I I just assumed that the responses would be things like you know, can I print out this letter and give it to my daughter, or I'm gonna save this letter and give it to my granddaughter, or but the the number one most dominant response I got, and it cut across age groups, cut across the sexes, um, cut across uh ethnic groups, the number one response I got was I needed to hear these words. Right? I needed to be reminded that I'm enough, that I belong, that I have a m a reason for being here, that I matter, like thank you for writing this to your daughter. I feel like you wrote it to the little kid in me who still needed, who's been waiting on those words. And so that that idea that we all still have a little one inside of us who's waiting on a love letter um became sort of the the foundational principle of of the book Lovable. Um and this is one as I talk to men about this, um this is this is one of the ideas that I I think can be most transformational is that you learn how to parent your own children by reparenting the little kid inside of you. Right? Like how do how do I know what my kids want? What did you want when you were a kid? Sure. How much did it hurt? How much did it hurt not to get it? How much did it hurt to get the opposite? Have you have you tuned into and had a reckoning with those experiences? Because if you have, like if you're tuned in to how much it hurt when a dad overreacted and yelled at you, it is going to be near impossible for you to do the same thing. Right. And so um, and so I think that was that was a powerful takeaway for me is that we've got work to do in turn in order to that that little one inside of us that needed to hear these words that were in this letter also needs us to be constantly caring for it. Um and in that inner work, we're practicing caring for the little ones that we've we've given birth to, that we've uh the next generation. So that that for me became a big part of the process is um learning how to take care of that part of me so I could take care of my kids in a similar way.

Chris Grainger: 22:27

Well, what so I mean, through that process of reparenting, like what led you literally to the makeup aisle for your daughter? I mean, that that's an interesting, just super interesting that you made that connection there for that. Was there anything that bringing a dot together that led you there?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 22:44

Boy, that's a good question. Um, I mean, the the the literal story behind that is I uh a buddy and I um who um you know we're both raising daughters, and we're both having sort of a reckoning with the shame that we had picked up in our childhood, the message that we weren't good enough unless we did this and we should do this to be good enough, like, and how much of a burden and a wound that had become for us. Um we're raising daughters and we're like, boy, these daughters are living in a culture of shame, right? They have to look a certain way to be good enough, they have to uh act a certain way to be good enough. And uh and he he he literally texted me from the makeup aisle of a store and he's like, dude, I'm in the makeup aisle. Like, you should see some of the messages in this place. I mean, like, how are we gonna raise daughters that don't carry the shame in this, you know? And so I thought, huh, I don't know what he's talking about. And so I went to the makeup uh store of a local department store, and there was literally these messages all over the makeup aisle, like literal words, and uh, and they were all essentially shaming messages. If you don't look like this on the outside, you're not good enough. And uh, and so I wanted to take the same words and repurpose them uh in a way uh for my daughter, and and that really, really resonated with people. So I think I think we all at some level are aware of the burden of shame that we carry. We're aware of how we sort of swim in a culture of shame, and we are eager to get free of it. And I think that's a big part of why lovable resonated.

Chris Grainger: 24:15

100%, 100%. And and for the guys specifically, I definitely wanted to pull on this with you. A lot of guys equate worth with performance. You've kind of alluded to it already. Like, how do you challenge that with lovable and with the the things that you teach?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 24:32

Yeah, well, and again, I'm an Enneagram three. You know, performance is my uh That's your jam, though. That's my jam. That's my calling card, so I'm I'm keenly aware of this. Um yeah, so like uh there I I so I I I'm a person who believes that we need to be awarded for our performance. Um but I also believe we need to be affirmed for our personhood. Um and so like I started coaching my son in in youth soccer many years ago. He's a senior now, he'll be playing tonight. Um he um one of the one of the things that we would do uh when there was there was one thing I would say to him before the game, have fun, be a great teammate, I can't wait to watch you play. Right? And then when he would come off the field, I'd say one thing. It was fun to watch you play. I enjoyed watching you play, right? And then I'd ask, are you ready for any feedback? Yeah, right. Um but but the idea being it is just a gift to get to witness you, to get to be here for this, to get to see you do that. You lost. It was it was awesome to watch you play, right? So even today, this morning, when he walked out the door, knowing I won't see him before his game tonight as a senior in high school, the one thing I said is I can't wait to watch you play. Um and it's it's true. I get a little emotional thinking about it. We we also had this, uh I had this sort of back in in youth soccer, actually all the way through um through middle school. We had this ritual we did. The the last uh practice of the season, uh prior to it, I would sit down with my roster and I called them a words, not a words, but a words. Um, and I would create a certificate with a word that exemplified something delightful about the character of each kid, how they showed up. Not how they passed the ball or how many goals they scored, but just how they showed up to the team and to to sort of life in the soccer field. And then we we would uh we'd order pizza, you know, and Capri Suns or whatever, and we'd we'd go and uh I mean, you know, four, fourth, fifth, sixth grade kids, and they got pizza, it's post practice, they're running around and chattering, they're almost impossible to corral. But the thing that I discovered is that the first award you give, they all just stop dead silent. You you affirm a kid for who they are, not what they've done, right? But who they are, and they just are entranced. They're like, Yeah, I am I next? What's my word? Right? They're just dying for that, that kind of affirmation. So that to me, and again, I think whether or not we win the tournament at the end of the year, I think the winners should get trophies and everybody else shouldn't. Like, I'm I I believe performance should be awarded properly, but personhood should be acknowledged properly as well. And and so that's that's what I try to emphasize as a dad is it's just a gift to get to be here, to watch, to see you, and uh, and wins are icing on the cake.

Chris Grainger: 27:37

Man, so I'm all right, so I'm stealing that, Dr. Kelly. So that's I'm gonna do that. I do a lot of coaching. Yeah, so and you call it award ceremony.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 27:45

All right. The award the award ceremony. What was crazy, so I I quit doing that at the end of eighth grade, uh, because then he was in high school and I wasn't his coach anymore. But my oldest son, he uh graduated now, gosh, four years ago from high school. It was his senior year, and it was um the end of the year uh choir uh banquet. And get a little emotional at this. His choir teacher did basically the same thing for each of the graduating seniors.

Chris Grainger: 28:15

Really?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 28:16

And they were just as attentive, they were just as emotional when they were then when they were given their word. It was like this doesn't go away in us, yeah right? Like I think we learned to build up armor against it a little bit, right? But like the the longing to be seen and to be named, it just doesn't go away.

Chris Grainger: 28:35

Do you remember any any stories from those ceremonies that just stand out or any any kids or parents the way they reacted that or did you like to share? It just sounds like such a cool, cool experience. Yes.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 28:49

If if I could remember, Chris, if I could remember four days ago, let alone four years ago, uh I would. Um, you know, it was interesting. Uh what I'll tell you. Here's a story. One of the one of the young ladies who was on that team, I guess she was probably uh it was probably on the the one of the sixth grade teams. Uh we went to her graduation party, her high school graduation party last summer, and she still had the certificate that I'd that I'd given her in sixth grade. Um and I hear this from parents all around town. They're like, oh yeah, my kids got it on their wall, or yeah, it's still sitting on their desk. Like they they hold on to it and they go back to it. And I think that's one of the things I'd want to encourage um fathers, parents, but but fathers in particular, is that your words have tremendous power. Tremendous power. And if you frame them in some way, um, you know, just create a little bit of space around them to say what I'm about to tell you is important and special and true. Um, those words can stay in and with a child for the rest of their lives, can shape shape their sense of identity and who they are. So um my encouragement is to, if you're taking up space like with your kids, is to take up space in that way, make sure the right words are getting into them.

Chris Grainger: 30:09

Love that advice. Love it. Thank you for sharing that. You bet. No, we uh in your book a lot, you you talk you address some areas that I think are important. It's like for for for some, a lot of the guys that come to the lion, they come here because they're they're lonely, they're isolated, they're battling some, you know, maybe depression or anxiety, different things. But uh for the guy that feels invisible right now, who's listening to to you and maybe doesn't have a lot of close relationships, how would lovable what what would you like to tell that guy so far as you know just to to build him up and encourage him?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 30:45

Um I would say um, I mean it's hard to believe. Right, 'cause here I am on a podcast and talking about all this stuff. But um if you knew my whole story, you'd know I I know exactly what it means to feel invisible. Um I know exactly what it means to feel that surely you must not be a very interesting human being, or people would be paying closer attention. Um I I also know though because I've had to work through this, that we end up participating in our own loneliness. Right? This is what happens is we we develop the shameful belief that there must be something wrong with us uh to in order to explain the sense of this painful sense of loneliness and isolation and disconnection. There must be something wrong with us. What what is it that's wrong with me? And and as soon as you feel like there's something wrong with you, now you have to protect yourself. And we talk, I talk about this in Lovable. We build this complex ego structure that hides us or defends us, or sort of we try to elevate ourselves to to feel better about ourselves. And in the process of doing that, we're just actually exacerbating our own separation. Um, and what lovable really talks about is this process of learning to reveal yourself to people again, right? Um, I I talk about how you you know you don't build belonging, you find belonging by announcing who you authentically are and looking around to see who celebrates. And and and if you announce it enough and you look around enough, there will be people celebrating. And and I believe, I believe we just need a handful of people who kind of go, oh, I see you. I dig that. Um and some of us are pretty unusual people. Like there aren't gonna be a ton of people out there who are like, oh, I get you, you know. Um, but who said it? Like if they're if you're one in a million, then there's seven million people like you on the planet or eight million people like you on the planet, right? So um, you're not as alone as you think you are. Um, but no one can know that until you start to announce yourself. So I um a lot of lovable is about regaining the sense of worth. It gives you the courage to reveal who you are so you can start to find your people.

Chris Grainger: 32:58

Got it. Love it, love it. Guys, I'm gonna take another quick break. We'll be right back. Trying to find genuine resources to help grow spiritually can feel overwhelming. At least it was for me. For the longest time, the support that I was looking for didn't exist. And I knew I wasn't alone. And at the same time, God was leading me to take action while we built the Lion Within Us community, which is simply a place for Christian men to grow together in an honest, practical way that's always rooted in God's Word. Made it simple, daily spiritual kickoff for that little boost to get you going. We have Bible studies focusing on discerning truth and applying it. And we have a private forum where you can speak freely amongst other guys who listen. We have things like Friday Forge, Couples Night, where we tackle the hard items that guys are craving to talk about. Most face settings refuse to explore these areas. Our community is about a growth mindset, intentionality, and transparency. No perfect resume, just a willing heart and a desire to lead. Believe in what we've built simply because I've seen God use it to strengthen so many men. I'll be honored to walk alongside you. So if you're ready, visit thelionwithin.us to explore the community. Start your free trial. Look around and see how this could help you lead with clarity and courage. So your journey begins here at thelionwithin.us. I look forward to seeing you inside the den. Well, Dr. Kelly, you mentioned one word in your previous answer that I feel like we've got to pull that just a little bit because uh there's a lot of there's a lot of uh power in it and uh in a bad way many times, and it's shame, the word shame. And there's lots of guys that I talk with on a regular basis that are shameful, they look at their past, I'm no good, I can't be used. And I try to just tell them Romans 8:1 is there's no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. So I have to speak that over a lot of guys on a consistent basis, but that's shame, it is powerful. So like unpack that as well. Like how you address that, how do you recognize that guys who feel shameful? What's your advice to them or or counsel?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 35:30

This is so um one of the most important distinctions I make when speaking to a Christian audience is the distinction between guilt and shame. Um, and the idea that they're two they're two very different emotional experiences. Um and that guilt is the awareness that you've done something wrong. Okay. I've done something wrong, but it's also um it is a it's a motivating emotion. I've done something wrong, I want to correct it, I want to fix it, I want to rectify that, I want to redeem that. Right. When it's when when you purely experience guilt, it's sort of like a it's like an emotion that's that's sort of woven into our DNA and into our soul. We're intended to feel guilt, right? When I snapped at my daughter yesterday, right, I guilt is what I want to feel. That's right. Guilt brings you brings you out of hiding in order to fix the thing that was done. Shame is the opposite. If guilt is a belief that you've done something wrong, then shame is a belief that you are something wrong, right? That that God made a mistake when God made you. Um that there's something fundamentally flawed about you that is part and parcel of who you are and it can't be fixed. And that is a demotivating emotional experience and spiritual experience. It's like, oh, well, if this is who I am, then the best I can do is to hide who I am or try to build a new persona to to sort of win people over or to stay safe or to to to get approval. And and so we we go into a process of hiding and pretending when we have shame. And uh and it doesn't it doesn't motivate us to show up more fully and show up more authentically. And the you know, and and Brene Brown has talked about this, like one of the great fuels for shame is hiding.

Chris Grainger: 37:24

Um isolation, right?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 37:26

Isolation, right? Shame says, uh, uh oh, there's nothing to do but to hide myself, and then the hiding fuels the shame, which says we'll keep hiding even more. Um one of the most powerful things you can do when you feel ashamed is to tell somebody that you're feeling ashamed. And what you'll notice, uh assuming that you have told someone who doesn't then shame you for it, and that does happen, but assuming that you've chosen wisely who to reveal yourself to, um, that shame will immediately dissipate. Um yeah, that's right. Uh and then it will, and then because uh it takes a lifetime to change a way of thinking about oneself and understanding oneself, like then that shame will sort of start to accumulate again, and then you'll share it with somebody and it'll dissipate again. Um I mean, one of the most powerful things I've ever done is write a book about feeling ashamed, and right, and then to talk about it all. It's a blessing to me because every time I talk about it, it diminishes a little more.

Chris Grainger: 38:21

But it just I feel like it goes against so many guys' natural tendencies to to keep everything inside, to put on the front of being strong, to be in a solid, fierce. I'm a warrior. Warriors don't need to have these soft conversations, and it's like, no man, that's not I think we're missing the point here between weakness and meekness, and maybe maybe you can make a connection there for some guys.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 38:43

Yeah, I mean, our our the the protections that we have devised for our shame wouldn't be effective protections if we didn't think of them as positive things. Right? So, yeah, like you said, like put on this armor, I'm okay, I'm tough, we don't talk about what hurts, we don't talk about the past, we're not vulnerable. Like those are all qualities that sort of get glorified as dimensions of masculinity. And the reason they are for a while effective uh sort of ways of coping with shame is that they are glorified. We see them as positive. Now, what you see is this it's this concept, you know, that like um what got you here will keep you here, right? And and and and what the way I generally think of it is that the first half of life, the first half of the spiritual journey we'll say, because that's not really chronological, but the first half of the spiritual journey oftentimes is coming up with ways to cope with our sense of shame. And then the second half of life is beginning to release all those coping mechanisms to genuinely show up authentically. Um and so yeah, I I'm I'm with you, like um feeling sort of coping with our shame by feeling uh strong and tough and um untouchable. I mean it feels great for a while until it it it it you know sort of increases your your loneliness and your shame exponentially.

Chris Grainger: 40:17

100%. And you you mentioned a word there too. Uh I just feel like you keep giving me so so many great things to consider. But this is another word that guys struggle with is vulnerability. So maybe what role does that vulnerability play in becoming the lovable type of guy that you know, particularly for guys who who want to be high achievers who are out there trying to do what God's called us to do, but man, being vulnerable is not something that uh it's talked about very often or guys even know how to do.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 40:44

No, it's not. Um I actually just wrote about this on my on my Substack uh and I tried to reframe the whole vulnerability conversation with a metaphor.

Chris Grainger: 40:55

Okay.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 40:56

Um and the idea is that we often think of vulnerability as something we do. Like that vulnerability is um you know, saying a thing you don't want to say or being more honest than you generally are comfortable being, that kind of thing. It's almost like it's not having any any walls or something like that. But the the metaphor that I use is that the vulnerability is a um actually this was um James Bryan Smith. Uh are you familiar with him? He he he he completely renovated my s my my understanding of the soul uh at a conference of his um called uh the apprentice gathering when he said uh he said the soul is a needy thing. The soul is a needy thing, it's a it's a fragile thing. Um and I would say the soul is a vulnerable thing, right? This is why as children we come into the world, we're so vulnerable. Um we're we're a soul with skin on, right? Um like at our at our truest essence, we are vulnerability, essentially. Anything can get in. Um and and so the the metaphor that I use was like if you put a hot coal in the center of your hand with your palm up and it just rests on that middle, that little hump of the middle knuckle, a hot coal, it's like a it's a it's a painful little prick of pain there in the center of your hand, right? And then what most of us do with our vulnerability then is we actually try to reduce the vulnerability by clenching the coal and hiding it and hiding our vulnerability. And that creates immeasurable suffering, all of the things we do to hide our natural vulnerability, um, all the pain that comes from clenching around that. And that the second half of the spiritual journey is about learning to sort of open that that hand back up and just to live with our natural vulnerability, to live from our soul and its natural vulnerability. Um so when I talk to guys about being vulnerable, I don't this isn't about like doing things you don't want to do. It's about living in alignment with your reality, which you are vulnerable, and then everything that you do to try to make yourself invulnerable is causing you immeasurable suffering. So, what does it look like to show up with your natural vulnerability to your life? Classic example, talking about dads and daughters, right? My daughter's turning 16 next month. I'm terrified, terrified of a dozen different things, right? That's vulnerability. That's this this young woman who I I care about more than any other young woman on the planet, and uh who is so important to me. I'm releasing con any any even semblance of control I had over her into the world where anything can happen to her, right? She's gonna get behind the wheel of a car. That blows my mind, my little girl's getting behind a wheel of a car. That's vulnerability. That is that is showing up to life without trying to control all of it, but just ready to receive it and to go through it. Um, and so yeah, that's that there are a myriad number of ways that I think we can learn how to practice vulnerability as just an alignment with the way things are.

Chris Grainger: 44:24

As a my oldest is 15, she'll be 16 next August, too. So I'm I'm right here with you. And it's hard. I mean, even now, what she's she's learning that she has a learner's permit, and I'm sitting there with her coaching her, but recognizing that that day is soon coming. Coming. Man, that's a that's a scary feeling.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 44:42

It is a scary feeling. Um and that scary feeling is I don't want to go through the vulnerability of this. Like I often talk about fear being um fear is a resistance to an experience. Right? There is resistance to what could happen. Um it's fear is I wish there was some way to go around this and bypass it and not have to go through it. And um invulnerability is just going through it, right? Being present to it. And uh and so yeah, on October 8th, I just gotta go through it. It's it's good, it's it's gonna feel vulnerable, and that's life.

Chris Grainger: 45:26

Well, how about I mean there there's so many guys out there who read books like this and and they get kind of worked up and they they definitely want to uh take it and learn it and apply it. You know, what advice would you give them for actually applying the lovable concept into their families, into their maybe their workplaces, their communities, or just look to the guy that they look into the mirror and who's reflecting back on them. So any any practical application you would have for taking this really lovable and actually turning it into action?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 45:57

Well, one of the things I talk about in lovable is the the powerful, powerful, powerful practice of learning, of of listening to and listening for the voice of grace within you. Um we're so we're so caught up in the project of proving our worth through one more performance, through one more achievement, right? Through one more situation. And um, you know, I'm I I briefly mentioned this sort of moment of spiritual awakening in which I I like I came to to a fully embodied experience of my own belovedness. Well, for me, that experience came six months on the heels of a New Year's resolution. And in the New Year's resolution, I uh going 20 this is 2007 into 2008, I said to myself, I'm I'm I'm done consuming books and ideas. Um I need to practice some of the things, the prayer, um, the presence and the contemplation that that I've been reading about in these wonderful books. And and so for for the for the full year of 2008, I am going to practice those things. Um and whoa, like that wasn't easy because at first all I heard was the shame, right? That's all I was hearing inside. I remember standing in the kitchen one morning with my my wife after uh I was I'd been on the bike for 45 minutes at the gym, no books, no nothing, just with myself and my inner life. And I I came home and I said to her, you go, you know, my whole I'm realizing my whole life, if if you told me that I was gonna stand in front of God and God was gonna say something to me, my whole life I believed he would look at me and he'd go, Kelly, you can do better. You can do better. And I said to her, I'm starting to realize that's not the voice of God in me. That's the voice of shame in me. I've never heard the voice of God speaking in me. I've I've confused it with my shame. And so um, I was spending that first half of 2008, just I'm just gonna listen until I hear the voice of God. Um, and what I can tell you now, and what I say in in Lovable is that the voice of grace, the voice of God is always speaking in you. It is always whispering of your belovedness. It's just not gonna try to shout over the voice of shame. This is why one of my favorite Bible passages is you know, Elijah coming out of the cave, right? And at first it's a violent wind, and then and an earthquake and so on and so forth, and then finally all that noise dies down and hears the voice of God. Um so that'd be my encouragement to men listening to this first and foremost, would be create the space in your life to listen for what is always being whispered inside of you until you finally hear it. And and it won't happen right away. Six months of dedicated practice for me. I got an email not too long ago from a woman who said, I read your book Lovable three years ago, and I finally heard the voice of grace this morning. And uh, yeah, yeah. And but but but once that voice is heard, it can't be unheard, right? And you know now that if you're not hearing it, it's because the other voices in there have gotten louder, and it's time to let them settle again, sort of like mud settle into the bottom of a you know puddle so that you can see more clearly again. So that'd be my encouragement to those who are listening.

Chris Grainger: 49:18

And I guess too, just to pull on that for guys, sometimes that means actually disconnecting and getting quiet and getting still. Sounds like you had to get still for quite a while to hear that voice of Grace.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 49:27

For quite a while, and fortunately I was doing that. I mean, I I I dated it 0708. That was before I got my first iPhone. Um and so the the challenges to taking the space to be with yourself and to to to listen to what's being said within you are exponentially more numerous at this point. Um but this morning, you know, like I said, I told my son, can't wait to see you play tonight. I walked out into the driveway and waved him and my daughter off uh to school. And uh I was like, I just I need to sit here for 15 minutes. I just need to sit here out in nature for 15 minutes and be a present. And uh my phone was in my pocket and I couldn't I couldn't do it. And there's actually good data on this. Like when they when they um do research on kids who are taking tests, um they they do three conditions. Um one is that the phone is sitting next to them on the desk, the other is that the phone is within sight across the room, and the other is that their phone is out of sight. They do just as poorly on the test when the phone is they don't pick up their phone. But when it's sitting on their desk or if it's it within eyesight, they do poorly on the test. If it's completely out of eyesight, they do better. Our our brains at this point are so conditioned to ping our devices that we can't concentrate on anything else if they're within our our consciousness. So I I literally got up, I went inside, I took, put my phone inside, right, and I went back outside because I was not going to be able to be present if that thing was on my body. Um, and so that's just that's an encouragement that I want to give to folks is create the spaces and the situations that actually lend themselves to being able to be present with your inner life.

Chris Grainger: 51:10

That's incredible. That's incredible. Great, great trip, great, great advice. Before we we kind of get towards the end, we always have a fun lightning around, Dr. Kelly. So if you're willing to play, we'll just have have a little fun here and then we'll uh we'll wrap up, give the guys a good shout out to where to get a copy of the book and everything. But uh let's jump right into it. So what's the favorite hobby? What's something that you enjoy doing for fun?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 51:32

Oh man, um, so I I used to say writing, but that's now what I do for a living, so I can't say that anymore. Um and and cycling is one of them. But uh my daughter did pick up golf was a my hobby and passion as a as a young kid. Okay, and uh my daughter, my daughter's just picked it up and is playing on the on the golf team for the high school. So that's back uh that's that's front and center for me. And now I get to be a good dad while I do it. So I feel like extra permission to play golf again.

Chris Grainger: 51:59

Well, you mentioned cycling too, so is this like you road cycling as well?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 52:03

Oh, there's just yeah, hybrid fitness bike is just you know, to for me to get some exercise while you're out in nature. Um and uh again with no devices or anything, just uh just uh yeah, that's uh that's peak experience for me.

Chris Grainger: 52:17

Amen. Yeah, I guess you gotta be kind of locked in if you're on the road. You can't be looking at the license there. Exactly. That's right. How about favorite food? What's your go-to, Dr. Kelly? Hmm. Favorite food?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 52:31

Oh man, it's just pizza. It's just pizza. It's pizza. I mean, I like, yeah, uh it's pizza to the point where my kids are sick of me saying, let's order pizza. Like literally, that happened this week. My wife's like, Oh, I don't know if we've got time for me to make dinner. I'm like, let's order pizza. They're like, not again.

Chris Grainger: 52:48

So yeah, pizza. Nice. You you and your wife have a uh uh a date night, you get to go to watch a movie, any movie, all-time favorite. Where what you and what are you and her gonna be uh pulling up?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 53:00

Oh, all-time favorite movie between the two of us. Yeah. Oh yeah. The first movie that comes to mind is uh movie called Arrival. Okay. Um it's uh it's theoretically, it's an aliens movie. Um twelve spaceships arrive and you know put themselves over twelve different cities across the the world, um, and they're and we don't know how to communicate with them, and they're just sitting there. Um so it's about this linguist who um is recruited to go onto one of the ships in the United States and to try to learn how to communicate with the aliens. Okay. And it is the best um it is the best allegory about how to communicate and connect amongst human beings. Um because let's face it, like in a lot of ways, my wife's an alien to me. My daughter's an alien to me, right? There's a whole universe going on in there I have no idea about, and that they don't understand completely. And so just uh just a beautiful allegory about the um the power of communication when it's done well.

Chris Grainger: 54:04

Love it, love it. If you could be a superhero or have a superpower, rather, which which one would you have and and how would you use it?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 54:14

Oh man, it depends on which part of me you ask. Like the dark side, the dark side of me is like definitely wants to be Batman. I mean, he's rich, he's got all the ladies, he's got all the cool toys. I'm a gadget guy. Um and you know, he just gets to be a little bit bad. Right. And I sort of I sort of like that. Um and then the other side of me is the exact opposite, you know, Superman. Like he's the uh the all-American, the all-American hero. Um I uh I I loved in the new Superman movie when he I think he said uh kindness is the real punk rock, you know. Um and and that new movie did a really good job of illustrating, I think, how kindness and compassion are are are superpowers if we harness them. So I don't know.

Chris Grainger: 54:58

Uh those are my two sides. Love it, love it. What was your go-to band growing up?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 55:04

Ooh um depends on what you mean by growing up. Um I was uh I was uh an embarrassingly like pop 80s kid. So you know I'm talking like we're talking Richard Marks, um I don't know, uh Mariah Carey, uh, let's see, uh Billy Joel was probably my segue into something a little more sophisticated. Uh and then fell in love with Dave Matthews band as I got into college. They were they were a big band for me. Um and uh but my favorite musician of all time, uh I'll give him a shout-out here, is uh a folk singer songwriter named Josh Ritter. And uh he came out with a new album recently, and he's uh he's someone who um I think I resonate with him because he's constantly wrestling with his faith and his music and um Love it and and and can't but can't let it go. Right. Can't let it go. It you know what I mean? Like that feeling of like, oh man, it's uh he's good.

Chris Grainger: 56:03

Yeah. That's awesome. Also I love to ask this question too, Dr. Kelly. What's your favorite thing about God? When you think about God, what what's your favorite thing about it?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 56:14

That I couldn't get rid of him if I tried.

Chris Grainger: 56:17

Relentless.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 56:20

Um and I don't mean that like I mean that right now. Like in this moment, in every moment, in every place and in every space, and in every person that I meet. I couldn't get rid of him if I tried.

Chris Grainger: 56:34

Amen. Let's flip it 180. What's your least favorite thing about the evil one about Satan?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 56:43

How clever he makes me feel. Yeah, yeah, just how much of um how much of the evil I do in the world happens in moments where I I feel like I'm at my most clever and sophisticated and righteous and um correct, right? So so cleverly disguised. Yeah. He is that. He is that. Or our last I mean that's a screw tape screw tape letters, right? From NCS Lewis, right? Like illustrates that to a T. I think that was an I an eye-opening book for me. Um, I just think we're so according to my social media feed, we've become exceptionally skilled at calling out evil in others. We are have lost most of our ability to call it out in ourselves. And so to be able to kind of like see see how that gets worked out in us, I think is an important uh awareness to have.

Chris Grainger: 57:43

100%. 100%. Well, Dr. Kelly, last question for you is what do you hope the the guys listening remember the most from our conversation, or maybe as well uh what get from lovable as they get their copy and dig into it?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 58:00

Maybe it's something that's is implicit in everything that we've said uh but hasn't been said explicitly, which is remember rediscovering your fundamental worthiness, um, relearning your basic belovedness is not hard work in the sense that you have to do something, strive, achieve. That energy can't get you there. Uh it it is only encountered again by settling into it, by resting into it, by learning that you don't have to do anything more to receive it. Uh and uh and so that'd be my encouragement is is you're not gonna come out of this with you know a big to-do list. You're gonna come out of it with a big don't do list, you know. Do do less, receive more, and uh that's what I'd want people to take away.

Chris Grainger: 58:55

Love it, love it. Well, Dr. Kelly, where where do you want to send the listeners to connect with you, the wonderful things you're doing? You mentioned social media as well to get a copy of the book. Just definitely want to give you a place for to send people. Thank you.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 59:07

Yeah, thank you. You know, my website is a great place to check in with all things, Dr. Kelly. I did just speak about myself in the third person. Um, Dr. Kellyflanagan.com. It's D-R-K-E-L-L-Y F-L-A-N-A-G-A-N.com. And then I'm Dr. Kelly Flanagan on all the socials. So anywhere your favorite social, you'll find me at that handle.

Chris Grainger: 59:29

Okay. All right.

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 59:30

We'll make sure that link.

Chris Grainger: 59:31

We'll try to get that synced up in the show notes for you listeners out there checking out. So now they will they run into your wife on social media or you or you're the only Dr. Kelly Flanagan on social?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 59:42

I good question. Um, I she uh has has no interest in social media. So uh you you will be getting just me for sure. Just you, just you. Okay.

Chris Grainger: 59:52

Okay. Well, Dr. Kelly, this has been an honor. Thank you so much for coming on. Anything else you'd like to share today?

Dr. Kelly Flanagan: 59:58

Oh, I just say I want to say thank you to you. It's such a meaningful conversation. We need more conversations like this, so it's quite an honor to be a part of it.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:05

Amen. Amen. Well, thank you so much again and appreciate your time today. Thanks. If you're looking for a simple way to get your week started right, the weekly roar is for you. So every week, I'll share a short reflection on scripture and a couple practical steps to help you walk it out. It's all about being clear, honest, and staying rooted in God's word. And here's the deal there's gonna be no inbox games, there's no hype. It's just an encouraging and quite often a challenging word to help you steady your week and strengthen in leadership. So if that sounds interesting, sign up for free at the lionwithin.uslash Roar. And here's the cool part. You can read this in a few minutes and carry it with you the rest of the day. So again, thelionwithin.us slash roar. That's R O A R to get your personal weekly roar every Monday morning. All right, fellas, I told you that was going to be good. Dr. Kelly did not miss at all, right? He delivered 100%. So hopefully, you know, get a chance, go get a copy of this book. And the question of the week this this week that we really want to think about is what noise in your life most drowns out God's whisper? We kind of ended on that. Dr. Kelly and I talked about that because there's so many things that just pull at us and just constantly grabbing for our attention. And we usually fill that those voids with volume, some type of volume of something. So think about that. And if that noise, whatever that you you identify that source source of noise, whatever it is, what can you do to quiet it down? Because in those quiet moments is when we're going to hear God the most. All right. So hopefully you enjoyed that, fellas. Again, give us a rating and review. Head over to the lionwithin.us. That's where you can connect with all our stuff, uh, as well as the Bible app. Open up the Bible app, check us out, search for the Lion Within Us. You'll find our page, all our resources there. Tons and tons and tons of resources on the Bible app, fellas. So hopefully you're being encouraged by that stuff and it's uh being a blessing for you. Uh, and other than that, again, the daily spiritual kickoff, the community, and our leadership mastermind. They are the three ways that we really lean in and we try to encourage you to help you. Uh, go check out get a copy of our book, thelionwithin.us slash book. You'll get a copy of unleashing the lion within, see what that's all about. Lots and lots of resources there for you, fellas. So it's all found at thhelionwithin.us. All right. Well, have a great day. Thank you guys so much for hanging out. We'll look forward to seeing you on our fun Friday. And remember just to keep unleashing the lion.