Chris Grainger: 0:53

Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders, God intends you to be. I'm your host, Chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, fellas. This is your meat episode. Let's get right into it, okay? So the scripture of the week this week is in the book of Nehemiah, the second chapter, the 18th verse, and it says, And I told them how the hand of my God had been favorable to me, and also about the king's words, which he had spoken to me. Then they said, Let's arise and build. So they put their hands to the good work. Fellas, love that verse. Go back and listen to the spiritual kickoff episode where I unpack that at length for you to help you figure out ways to simplify and apply it to your life. Again, we do this Monday through Friday within our Lion Within Us community. Do it completely for free as well for you guys who are interested in the daily spiritual kickoff. So all that can be found at the lionwithin.us. Okay, again, five days a week, guys. So you don't have to just get one. You can get five every day each during the week. So go check that out and we don't put that content anywhere else, all right? So today, speaking about Nehemiah, we're gonna be digging into Nehemiah even more. We're talking about the Nehemiah Way. And to do that, we brought in Dr. John Wilson. Really enjoyed meeting John. Uh, he is the author of the Nehemiah Way, How to Mobilize a Church Full of Leaders. He's a great guy. He's an author, he's a speaker, uh, he's an entrepreneur. He's done tons and tons of work out there, fellas. And I just love John's take on the book of Nehemiah and how he uses that to equip, teach, to help pastors, particularly millennial pastors, is where he feels the most called. But uh man, he's just got a he has a uh just a natural way way of sharing, of encouraging, of just inspiring out there. Uh he's done many different leadership roles. He's been an executive coach before in the past, and and this this Nehemiah way, which he's getting ready to unpack for us, uh, has been taught to many, many, many different groups. And and and it's proven it works. It's using the Bible to apply to our life today, uh, which I absolutely love. And uh so hopefully you're gonna enjoy this one. He's from Pennsylvania, he's got three children. Uh he lives in Chester Chester County, PA. So if you guys are up in Pennsylvania, he's in your neck of the woods. So anyway, fellas, hopefully enjoy this conversation with my friend, John Wilson. Well, John, welcome to The Lion Within Us. How are you doing today, bud?

John Wilson: 3:22

I'm doing great, Chris. Thanks so much for having me. It's uh it's just exciting to me to see what you're doing, and just um as we've been getting to know each other, seeing so many cool connections with the neom Iowa. So really glad to be here.

Chris Grainger: 3:33

Amen, brother. Amen. And before we get into the neomile way, man, like share something fun about you, John, maybe that not many people know about.

John Wilson: 3:41

All right. Uh actually, here's the uh new thing. I this summer became a Jeep Wrangler owner for the first time. Okay. So uh I have been uh in the evenings, uh, you know, doors off, roof off with my uh with some of my kids running around town, just having a great time with it. And I think what's really interesting about it is you don't just buy a Jeep, you join a community. Oh, yeah. And so, you know, just driving by, everybody's doing the little wave, and you know, just uh, you know, the conversations you end up having, and uh, you know, getting ducked in the parking lot, you know, getting a little rubber duck sitting on your door handle is like it's pretty exciting.

Chris Grainger: 4:16

Nice now. Are you gonna jack it up and put big tires on, or what are we doing here, John?

John Wilson: 4:21

Oh, maybe one day it was funny. Somebody made a comment about 37s, and I'm like, well, I I I made the big purchase this year. I I actually the other thing is I you know everybody sees the doors off. It's like, oh, that looks great. You know, I had to buy a special jack to lift the roof off, and like the doors are they're pretty, it's all pretty easy, but it's like it's not like a five-minute process. So uh it's just been learning the uh learning the ropes of like all that and getting uh getting set up. But um uh I'm definitely a newbie, but I'm uh I'm definitely uh heading in that direction.

Chris Grainger: 4:50

That's cool, man. Have you been caught in a rainstorm yet?

John Wilson: 4:54

I have not. Uh we've been very careful about watching the weather report and all that. Um, but uh actually it's so it's an EV as well. It's like the plug-in electric. Um so I have no idea what happens when you get caught in a rainstorm. Like I it it may not just be annoying, it may be dangerous. I don't know.

Chris Grainger: 5:10

There you go, man. We'll we'll be praying for safety when you're out there, buddy. Well, I'm super pumped to have you here. Uh love everything that that you're about, what you're building, particularly with the Nehemiah Way. So kind of maybe give the guys a little bit of a foundation of what led you to this to Nehemiah as the foundation for everything that you've been building.

John Wilson: 5:31

Yeah, absolutely. Well, first let me say what the Nehemiah Way is for, and then I'll tell you a little bit of the backstory because it's it goes away back. But really, uh what I've what I've really found is what God has called me to do with this is to uh really just provide support to millennial pastors that are ambitious for the spread of the gospel with their churches. So a lot of them first time in elite pastor role, uh, a lot of times just trying to, maybe it's a church plant. And the Nehemiah Way is really just taking the book of Nehemiah and breaking it down in a way that is both spiritually enriching. There's so much opportunity for discipleship, but it's also highly, highly practical. Um, so that's really what the Nehemiah Way is for. That's what it's about. But let me tell you where it began. It was 1978. Um, and I'm giving you a little bit, I'm I guess I'm showing my age here, but like I was four years old and my mom had a Bible study in her neighborhood. Um, the Bible study went on for 30 years. Um, dozens of people saved through this Bible study, just right in the neighborhood. You know, anytime anybody thinks like, oh, I just do this like little, little thing in my neighborhood, like little Bible study, it's like the impact and power is huge. But she comes to me as a four-year-old and she says, I am going to launch into this book called Nehemiah. And I would like uh to charter you as uh part of the uh the initial skit to kick off the you know the whole series. And so she said, I want you to play the part of this Nehemiah who's a cupbearer and uh the cupbearer to the king. I'm like, Well, I don't know anything about cupbearers, I don't know anything about wine, I don't know anything about Nehemiah, but I'm like, there's a king, we gotta have a throne. And I started tearing all the pillows off this old blue couch and building a throne for her to be the king, as I'm, you know, kind of the cupbearer to the king kind of thing. And so I think that was like that early formative uh just sensitization of this particular book of the Bible. And I find a lot of people, even people who've been believers most of their lives, don't know a lot about the book. Um if you say, Oh, what's Nehemiah about it? It's like they'll either say, you know, I'm not trying to read it, or they'll say, Oh, it's he's the one who built the wall, right? He built a wall. Um one of my big themes through everything I do is it's not about the wall. And I'm sure we'll get into that. But um, so that was really that formative experience. And then uh God has really created a lot of opportunities for me to dig deeply into this part of scripture um in a number of different contexts throughout my life. Um, when I started working on my PhD, I uh I went into a program uh uh that was focused on biblical foundations of organizational leadership. That was the PhD. And so I went right to Nehemiah. I'm like, this is I'm I've looked at this, I've read this, I've dug into this all my life. And I really focused my a lot of my PhD work on building organizations uh on a similar way as Nehemiah. And what I when I started looking for tieouts to contemporary theory and those kinds of things, I realized it's entrepreneurial leadership. And interestingly enough, that's what I do now. I've I've been an entrepreneur, I've been a corporate entrepreneur, um, I now teach entrepreneurship and I coach entrepreneurs. And so this, you know, Nehemiah has really been the foundation of that whole paradigm. And uh so that's that's really how it all began and then um then kind of advanced with the PhD work. And then in my own church, I just started working with my pastors. They asked me to come and do a workshop uh with them for a weekend about 10 years ago now. Um that's when I really built the the workshop format out. Sure. And then um, and then they asked me to do like a class, a workshop series. Actually, they asked me to do a Sunday school class. And I said, Well, how about we instead do a workshop series? Because what they were doing is they were saying, we need to find other leaders. The three pastors were tired. They had been a church plant. They're like, okay, well, let's face it, we're no longer a church plant, we're church. Um, and the pastors were doing everything, they were tired, they're still in kind of startup mode. And so um, they're like, we need to mobilize some other leaders. So I said, well, let's not just like teach a class. Let's like give me a problem that you know you need to chew on that you just haven't had the bandwidth to do. It's important, but hasn't gotten to the you know, tyranny, uh, gotten past the tyranny of the urgent. So they gave us a challenge and we brought in about a dozen people in the church that they felt like had leadership potential and said, Hey, we're gonna do this series of workshops. We're gonna learn about Nehemiah, and we're also gonna be applying it every day, uh, you know, as we go through this. And um, it was really, really amazing to see what happened uh as you know, these individuals really stepped up in their own leadership, but then also just seeing where it went from there. Like every one of them have main continued in leadership roles in the church. Um, there was these are volunteers.

Chris Grainger: 9:57

These are these is like volunteers in a church, just lay people, right? This wasn't the church. Okay.

John Wilson: 10:02

Yeah, this is not the church staff, this is lay people. Um, and you know, it was it was actually like the staff doubled in size um almost overnight because all these individuals really stepped up. And when it was when it was coming to an end, they're like, wait, we don't want to stop. And it's like, good, because this problem's still here. And they made a they they made a pitch that I I always like to say Nehemiah kind of Nehemiah's pitch deck. He kind of went to the king and said, Hey, I got a I got a proposition, right? Yep. And so they they pitched their kind of proposed solution to this problem uh to the pastors and the elders at the end of the course. And uh one of the people actually said, Hey, I want to spearhead this. Several people stayed involved. Others, you know, really saw like, hey, there's these other areas that are in need in the church. I want to step into those roles. Um, so it was really just a an interesting progression over time of how this developed.

Chris Grainger: 10:51

So awesome. So just kind of unpack some of the differentiation points that you that you call out during these workshops and through your study of Nehemiah that forgot forgot there's probably lots of guys out there who it's been a long time who since they've read the book of Nehemiah. And they're as soon as they think about it, they think about building walls. That's typically what I think about, right? So, what are the differentiating factors?

John Wilson: 11:12

Yeah, I mean, one of the first things I always say is it's not about the wall, you know, because so many times, um, and this is I think what we do with scripture sometimes. We look at scripture as like a practical guide to life. Um, and it is, for sure, but it's the gospel story, and God's always doing so much more with it than we see right on the surface. And so so many times people think the book of Nehemiah is about the wall or about rebuilding the city or even rebuilding the nation. And it's like, no, the book of Nehemiah is about sin, restoration, and redemption. And it's actually almost a foreshadow to the gospel. And, you know, it's uh Nehemiah is a bit of an Imagio Cristo in the sense of like, it's just giving us a little hint at what is to come. And what you see in Nehemiah is Nehemiah is not about like, here's a practical guide to building an organizational structure. What you see is Nehemiah living out what leadership looks like when you're stepping out by faith. You're hearing God's call, you're immediately going into prayer and continuously in prayer and never stopping praying, and at the same time also beginning to plan, beginning to prepare, uh, beginning to just make progress towards the goal and really just following God's uh lead on all of it. And that's the thing that really stands out in Nehemiah. And one thing that I think sometimes gets forgotten because Nehemiah like sits like in the middle of the Old Testament somewhere when you look at you know the table of contents on a Bible, but it's the last thing that took place historically in the Old Testament before the Gospels. So this is where it's like not only is Nehemiah setting the stage for the passion, setting the stage for the work that Christ is gonna do, but it's also it's kind of like it's the it's this jumping off point. Yeah. And so it's really interesting bookend. So it's uh to me, it's such a powerful story in its its deep uh spiritual and theological meaning and purpose, but also its practical applications.

Chris Grainger: 13:16

And I know part of what you call out is the the importance of prayer and how leadership often miss misses that as a as a key component. So why do you think those most leaders just just bypass that step when they when they're getting started?

John Wilson: 13:32

Yeah, well, uh it's so easy for the practical to be our focus, right? Um I just I just had the the the privilege of interviewing uh Keith Grant, who's with uh uh an organization called See Jesus, and their whole focus is on helping churches develop a commute a prayer-focused community, a community of prayer within their church. And um, it was just so interesting because, you know, I I I said to him, like, what is what's missing with prayer? And what Keith said to me is, you know, one of the first things we look at is is the pastor a praying pastor? And he said, because a lot of times people come to them and say, hey, we want to develop a community of prayer. Can you help us? And one of the first things they do is they really look at the pastor. Is the pastor a praying pastor? And not just the, you know, hey, Lord, we're opening this meeting, be with us tonight, you today, or like, oh, hey, we've got this problem, help us out with this, but like someone who's really committed to prayer. And then the second thing is, is the leadership team uh committed to prayer? And then third, and there's you know, several more in their their framework, but you know, are the individuals are they creating opportunities and really focusing on prayer, not just as a thing that a few people do, but something that is part of the whole community. And so that's where I think prayer is so critical and central. And I just think sometimes the tangible practical can seem like the easy thing, like let's just jump in and start doing something. Nehemiah prayed. Every everything, every time something happened, it was like Nehemiah, something happened, Nehemiah prayed, and then Nehemiah acted. And we see that repeating throughout the book of Nehemiah.

Chris Grainger: 15:02

So it's kind of that it's always his first response, right? I mean, and sometimes I I know for me, I'm just talking about just me. It's usually a last resort, sometimes like, all right, I've done everything else, might as well pray, you know. And it's just like, no, bro. Like, let's let's let's write, let's course correct this. It's just I I don't know. I feel like it's I've screwed up so many times. Like, I'm is this ever gonna become my standard mode of operation? But maybe one day, I don't know.

John Wilson: 15:29

I relate so much to that. In fact, one of the things uh when I really did the deep dive on Nehemiah 1, where you find Nehemiah's prayer, one of the, you know, it's actually a very famous prayer in the Bible. Um, it does get attention when someone's preaching on prayer. Uh, but there's a couple of things that are really interesting about it. First, when I really broke it down, I found there's eight components. I have a visual that has like eight boxes, you know, and um only the last one involves, I call it supplication for aid, you know, asking for help, asking for something. So seven out of eight boxes are doing something else. One box is saying, God help me with this. And I'm like, man, I live in box eight. And box eight feels really flimsy and self-serving when the other seven are absent. And things like um just you know, kind of uh just repentance of sin, just acknowledgement of sin and sinful nature, um, and just that kind of like just uh, you know, naked admission, confession of that, laying it at Jesus' feet, and just recognizing like that's the whole point of the gospel is that that has all been set aside, but we can't just like pretend it never happened or pretend it's not still happening. It's like and so you see Nehemiah going right to the root cause of the problem in the way he prayed, that this is a this is a problem. The problem is sin. And you know, he's confessing not just for himself, his family, the nation of Israel, for you know, he's he's really like laying that out as a first step. And it's like that's the root cause. And that's where I say it's like everybody goes right to well, let's start laying bricks, let's build the wall. It's like it's not about the wall, it's about sin, restoration, and redemption. Right. And you really see that in the prayer piece of this.

Chris Grainger: 17:15

100%, 100%. Guys, we're gonna take our first break. We'll be right back with John. Most men are fighting battles no one sees. Strained marriages, silent wounds, pressure to lead without a place to rest. That's why we created our community to help build strength, sharpen, and support brothers just like you. And now it's even easier to join than ever. We've lowered access to just $15.99 a month. Immediately, you'll get our daily spiritual kickoffs, our Bible studies, lion lunches, Friday Forge, and so much more. Every man needs a stronghold. And you don't have to fight alone. Join today at thelionwithin.us. That's thelionwithin.us, and get started today. So, John, when I was working through the book, I noticed, first of all, are you Baptist? Have you been or did you grow up Baptist?

John Wilson: 18:12

I did not. I uh I grew up in the evangelical free church. Okay. However, my family was uh we'll say uh an in intersection of reformed and charismatic. So that gives you an idea of kind of the the crazy uh like background of theology there. Um and so I uh I'm today part of a a church that's uh and part of the harbor network. Um so that's uh but that's yeah, I'm not Baptist, but you're probably seeing some some tense there.

Chris Grainger: 18:41

Um, no, the reason I asked, bro, is kind of funny because like if you go to any Baptist sermon, like usually there's three points, and you're really at a Baptist sermon sermon if they all start with the same letter. So when I got to the six P's, I'm like, bro, wait a minute now. So for the best for the Baptist pastors that are listening, you know, it's okay. You know I'm right. But anyway, let's just keep going. So the six P's, I think they're they're killer. You've already talked about prayer. So maybe do you want to unpack some of that? How for for leadership, how you see these areas really as kind of like a map moving forward.

John Wilson: 19:16

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and and uh it's funny you say the six Ps. It was like we didn't start with that in mind, but it was like something like four out of six, and then it was like and then you gotta figure it out, right? Yeah, there was some controversy about you know one of them. And um, yeah, and well, and to me, the six P's is like is the blueprint. I call it Nehemiah's Blueprint. Like anybody's seen my channel, I have a I have a series called Nehemiah, the Nehemiah's Blueprint. Um and you know, we've already talked a bit about prayer. Um, I think one last thing I didn't really mention before on prayer, but just worth noting. A lot of times people will read Nehemiah, like his brother came in, he found out Jerusalem was in ruins, he was bummed out, he prayed, and then the king's like, yo, you look bummed out, what's up? Um, what gets missed a lot of times is the first chapter of Nehemiah starts out uh by saying it's the month of Chislev, and the second chapter says it's the month of Nisan. And what can get missed in that, because like, I mean, is that what? March, April? Like, it's that's a five-month span of time. The month of Chislev is in like the late fall, early, you know, like kind of November time frame, and the month of Nisan is in the spring, like April. And so, you know, so five months have passed. So I first of all, you realize Nehemiah doesn't do anything quickly and you know carelessly. So that the prayer was clearly developed thoughtfully, and it was like a meditation. Um, because at the end, he's like, you know, uh, essentially, help me do well when I present to this man today. You know, it's like you see, is like he's preparing to the king. Well, he didn't know what day that was going to happen. And five months passed, so it wasn't his immediate just gut reaction to the news. So um, so that prayer was something that was happening over and over and over again. And that's where I think you can see when he does pitch to the king that overlaying that meditation and prayer that was happening, he's planning and he's preparing. And so that's like kind of like, you know, I always say the first three three moves of a chess game, you know, with most players is the same. Most players have a particular opening they like. Um and so the you know, pray, plan, prepare are those first three steps, those first three Ps. And you really see it by the time that he's talking to the king, the king's like, what are you asking for? And he knows exactly what he's asking for, and not just like, hey, I think it'd be great if I went and fixed the wall. He had a plan, it was already buttoned up, he knew his numbers. I mean, uh, you know, as someone who teaches entrepreneurship and someone who's been an entrepreneur and pitched for investors, like it is as close to a modern-day pitch deck on shark tank as you as you might find in the Bible because he's got it all buttoned up. He's figured out I know where I need to get the timber, I know who how I need to get there, uh, the permissions I need. If you some of the clues when you dig into like how he got there, he actually circumvented some of the territories that like a straight shot would have taken him right into the belly of the beast with some of the people that were going to provide opposition. He didn't want them to see him coming. So, pretty good inference is that you know he did a circuitous route, especially when you look at like how he approached how he got to the forest first and then Jerusalem, he had to come from the opposite direction. So, you know, it's like, you know, and again, you know, I'm not I'm not trying to, you know, say anything about what happened that's not in scripture, but you know, you kind of like when you look at a map of that time and you look at the territories and you look at how this approach, you know, he had even planned the route to make sure he didn't have to face opposition any sooner than he needed to. Um, and he also you know made provisions for himself. He knew he knew what attacks were gonna happen uh because Ezra and Zerubabel had like already faced off toe-to-toe with these people. He he knew he was able to go back to the record and say, Oh, I see exactly what they're doing here. They put a stop to this by you know, they threats and you know, um letters you know to the king, this sedition, all these kinds of things. He he knew their playbook, so he already had that plan because he, you know, you saw he was ready for everything that came. And so that planning is just really thinking through all the things that can be thought through ahead of time. And then as soon as he had the green light, he was ready to go. And even that timing, that month of Nasan, it's like the court was about to move from they they're they're a snowboard court, you know. They were in the they were in the southern location in Shushan, or Susa is the way it looks on paper. And um, but they're getting ready to move. So he knew this is the moment I have to peel off because I'm gonna be closest to Jerusalem. So even the timing, like he he knew what he was doing. And so the preparations, like he knew everything he needed. As soon as the king said yes, it was like he was letters were in motion and he was ready to roll. Um, so really those first three things, uh, that prayer, planning, preparation, um, you know, that's the those three things are what most I find most leaders, and this I'm not I'm not calling out pastors on this. This is I've seen leaders in industry, I was in the technology industry for over over 30 years, and in higher ed, I've been in the higher ed for five years. Like, um leaders like will jump in and just like, let's just get actionable, let's start doing something. And there's there's there's a time and place for that type of an approach, but that prayer, that thoughtfulness, that planning, and that preparation are the things that can really set up for it's almost like a tipping point for things to launch forward.

Chris Grainger: 24:29

Right. I tell you, when when I when I was thinking through this as you were just explaining it, there another P would be precision. Because I mean, if and I talk to uh to guys a lot about being precise with our words, precise with our actions. You can't be precise if you don't take the time to plan to prepare in that prayer piece of just asking the Lord for that wisdom and discernment, man. Love the three steps, because then you can actually start to your next P progressing forward. Yeah, exactly.

John Wilson: 24:58

Yeah, and actually I I wish we had this conversation before we finish the book because that would have been a great seventh P. And uh and very evident, you know, Miss uh Nehemiah was so precise. Right. Um, not just in his actions and um and his you know the planning and just the way he dealt with people, he was very precise, uh, the way he kept records. I mean, we have a deep understanding of what was happening there because of the kind of records that he took. Um, you know, it's funny, one of the things, you know, there's a lot of controversy about using AI, and I always say, okay, John Piper said let's not use AI to write our prayers. But um, you know, at the same time, there's so many things that pastors, particularly millennial pastors that are already tech forward, you know, should be doing to make sure that they're stewarding their time well. And, you know, I always think, like, man, Nehemiah, like, he was like talking to Chat GPT. Like he, you know, they said there are a few people went with me when he did the midnight ride and he had all these precise calculations and everything. You know, he probably had a scribe that was like, you know, he was talking out loud, writing these things down, keeping track of these. Because the it wasn't like, hey, a bunch of people came and helped. He lists their names. Chapter three is just a long list of names that everybody skips. And I'm always like, don't skip chapter three. There's so much good stuff there. Uh, because it's actually showing his entire structure and framework by the way he presents the names. And he's honoring those individuals who are in the place and time to be used by God and recognizing the the step that they took in faith to support this work. And so, yeah, so that that precision would actually be a really, really good pivot point uh before progress. Interestingly enough, so the the word that we struggled with that word for a long time. And not just to find a word that started with P, because that was not the goal. Um, we weren't even thinking about that. But you know, it was like the one that, you know, when you think about, you know, this is where I always had to untangle my, you know, secular kind of contemporary view on modern organization and leadership. I'd been a senior leader and a technology company. And, you know, so performance was a word I wanted to use. Okay. And I mean, uh, my co-author, my publisher, my pastor, everybody's like, uh, no go. Don't even go there, right? Because performance has is so low. Talk about precision with language.

Chris Grainger: 27:15

Yeah.

John Wilson: 27:15

Performance, we're talking about how the church operates, is just a loaded term. And it's like, man, the gospel says no on performance. Like, we are not earning our way into anything. Guess what? You know, if you want to like make God laugh, tell him your plans, right? You know, what we are doing, it's not about us. It's not about the wall, right? Um, it goes back to that whole thing. And so, so like performance was like, no go, but we're like, but you know, like, how do you know like when you're doing well? Because Nehemiah had very clear KPIs. You know, it's he broke this wall into 46 segments. Each segment had a champion, someone who owned that section of the wall. Everybody knew that this wall needed to be so thick and it needed to be so tall. It's like, and it was like, and you know what, we're doing it in phases. Phase one, build this thing to four feet. Phase two, build it to eight feet. He broke it in, and so you there was a lot of precision in the way that that happened. And that's how they were able to really measure that progress. And that's how they were able to make sure that they were moving along in the same pace. Um, one of the questions is why the phase? Like, why stop building at four feet before you go to the next four feet? And uh, you know, we can only conjecture on that. But I have some real interesting thoughts on why four feet. Um, and there's several things that I kind of infer or just think, you know, if it's like if it was me, this is probably why I'd be thinking that. Number one, some parts of the wall were like just broken and just needed some repairs. Some parts, they were just gone. And so some of them would be like, hey, we gotta like get material here. You know, some of at least there's a big pile of rubble, and like so the material's there. So you have like very, very different set of circumstances for each segment of the wall. You know, on average, each each person, each team was kind of had maybe 150 to 300 feet of wall that they had to build. We don't know how thick it is, we just know that they they had a party on top of the wall when it was over. So you figure it's gotta have at least been four feet thick. Um because you know, they had the basically the processional went up onto the wall. And so even if that was a two by two, you know, four feet, it's like don't fall off.

Chris Grainger: 29:17

That's pretty tight. Yeah.

John Wilson: 29:19

Yeah, exactly. So, but I think the four feet was to to reconcile the fact that some of these were probably gonna go pretty quickly and some of them were gonna be really time consuming, difficult. And I think there was an opportunity to say, hey, if you've got a simple one, go full throttle, get her done, and then then move over and help the other team and you know, and that kind of thing. And so, and then the other, and then the last piece is just defensible position. Um, you know, I think a lot of times there's this sense of like, oh, people were like sitting there saying, you guys are never gonna pull this off. You know, it's like, um you read this account, I kind of envision like a teenager laying bricks with like, you know, uh, you know, with a sword in his hand, and like, and it's like his sister and his little cousin are at their feet, and they're all like laying bricks, and there's an army 20 feet away screaming threats with swords and everything, like they're just gonna overrun them at any minute. I think that's the kind of tension they were probably dealing with in that. And so, so I think the four feet was like, you know, four feet's not um, you know, that's not a complete barrier for sure, but it definitely would slow an army down. Right. So, you know, I mean, there's some you just you see, like, you know, Nehemiah is not like a tactical leader. He's thinking strategically from the beginning.

Chris Grainger: 30:32

Sure, sure. And I think what when I when I was working through it, when when you got to the perseverance, I think this is where so many people fall off. And I'm not sure. Maybe that from your research, this is and your coaching to entrepreneurs as well. So many people, man, we're in a microwave culture, like we want. We want it now. We don't we want it like yesterday, actually. Uh, we want the instant success. And then we look at social media, whatever, whatever was feeding us, and all we see is success, and then that just gets us down. But that perseverance, man, like just unpack that. Why do you think that's such a big part of Nehemiah's story and why it should be a big part of our story as leaders today? Yeah, absolutely.

John Wilson: 31:12

Well, and it it's such a different, I think perseverance has such takes a such a different form now than it did for Nehemiah. So um, but it's all it's all the same principles are there. And I think, I mean, I think it's not an accident that God really highlights that, you know, those things that point to perseverance with Nehemiah. And, you know, so first perseverance is this is a big project. It's dirty, it's dusty. You know, at one point he's shaking his robes out. He's obviously in there. He's not just like calling shots from the the corner office. He's he's out there laying brick too. And um, so there's just the the physical, you know, you think this, it's uh, you know, it's it's they're heading into summertime, it's hot, you know, it's um it's dusty, it's dirty work. It's not, I mean, he was he was in the king's court. Yeah. He was probably the you know, something equivalent to the head of hospitality, which, you know, hospitality now is like the big buzz. You know, I've been reading Unreasonable Hospitality, the new gold standard, those kinds of things. Like hospitality is such a big thing. Nehemiah was a pro. And at an executive level, you know, it's like a lot of times we think he was just like the guy to make sure that uh, you know, he the king didn't die. Um, but you know, it's like, you know, even to be able to be taken seriously in the request he made, he already had to be pretty senior. And um, so you have just the perseverance of just the the rigor of that. But at the same time, uh, you know, it's like you've got uh like true opposition, you have like competing governors like saying, hey, we don't want Jerusalem to be a vital city. It's way quicker for a trade route to go through Jerusalem than to come all the way out into Sambalad or Geshem's territory. And so, you know, they had a they had a financial interest in making sure this didn't work out. And so, you know, so you have this this persecution. Um, and some of it, you know, at first it's ridicule. And like, man, I mean, how quickly do we fold when people start making fun of us? You know, it's like uh, you know, the so you know, persecution and the church, like, I mean, we are we do not, at least in the United States, we don't live in a culture where the church is really truly persecuted. I mean, that kind of feels like it sometimes, but like, you know, it's like nobody's throwing stones at us. That's right. Nobody's threatening to throw us in prison. There's like, you know, so so we have this, um, you know, you have this like persevering through like ridicule, but then that escalates. That ridicule turns into to threats of like, hey, we're gonna, we're gonna take away your support, we're gonna, we're gonna accuse you of treason. You might go to prison, you might be killed. Um, and then it's death threats. And then it's like, hey, come on down, we're gonna talk about this, but you know, hey, we're gonna try to take you out. And like I said, I mean, pretty good evidence that there was like like armies like at the walls as this thing escalated. And so, you know, that really just pushing through, even though everybody says this is impossible. And then at the same time, internally, people are like, hey, I got work to do. Like, I can't be messing around with this wall anymore. And then, you know, finding um, you know, injustice in their midst, like having to call a full stop to the work. You know, he's like so committed, like nothing is gonna stop us. We're building this wall. And then all of a sudden he calls full stop. Everybody, like, put the bricks down, put the trials down, stop mixing like masonry, like stop. We're gonna deal with this. Because at the end of the day, it's not about the wall. It's about sin, restoration, and redemption. And here you have Nehemiah spots, like, wow, in spite of all this other stuff around us that we can withstand and persevere through, we've got the root cause of the problem rearing its ugly head right here. The whole purpose of the mission is like lives or dies on this moment. And so he's like, full stop. Let's let's just we gotta take it out. We gotta deal with this, we gotta deal with our sin before we can build God's kingdom.

Chris Grainger: 34:53

Amen. Hey, we'll take a quick break, guys. We'll come back and keep digging in with John. I've got something big to share. We're making a major shift because we know the battle was real, and it's time more men had access to the support they need. For too long, guys have been trying to carry the weight along, pressure at work, tension at home, wounds from the past, and a world that demands strength but offers no place to rest. We see it, we've lived it, and that's exactly why we built our community. It's a stronghold, a place where warriors can find rest, truth, and a band of brothers standing beside them. And starting now, we're making it easier than ever to step in. We've lowered the barrier to just $15.99 a month. That means for less than the cost of a drive-through lunch, you can join a brotherhood that's centered on Christ and built for growth. Inside, you'll find access to our daily spiritual kickoffs every Monday through Friday, our lion lunches, our Bible studies, our Friday forge gatherings, all that and so much more. Every man needs a stronghold, and you don't have to fight alone. If you've been waiting for the right time to jump in, this is it. Go to thelionwithin.us and join the community and see for yourself what happens when iron truly sharpens iron. So, John, when I got to the last P, I just smiled because I was like, No, there's no such thing as people problems. So, like, it can't be a people problem in a church either. Like, are you kidding? You're making this stuff up. So, man, I'm just just joking. So, like, why do you think that's no joke? How did this have to be? This had to be included in the process, right? So just unpack that for us.

John Wilson: 36:32

Yeah, and it's interesting because uh, you know, one of the things we we wrestled with with this one, this was the first one, it's not a platitude, so to speak. Yeah, but it's a reality. And we we you know, we we didn't find we couldn't come up with a better word, but it's like it is at the uh root of all of it. It's like this whole thing for Nehemiah could have gone the way of Zeruba Babel. Could have gone the way of Zerubbabel, could have gone the way of Ezra, right? It could have just gotten stalled out. Uh people could have been disturbed discouraged, uh, they could have been worse off than when they started. It it all could have gone that way. Um and you know, it's like at the end of the day, uh people usually, you know, well, people are the problem because it's like our our sin, we all bring our sin to every situation. You know, the the adage of like, oh yeah, there was a perfect church and then I joined, right? You know, and um of course it wasn't perfect and it was never gonna be, and joining you just made things worse and complicated. Uh but um the, you know, that's the the heart of it. And uh I I I spoke at the Gospel Coalition conference in the spring, and uh it was like a good sized room. It was like, you know, one of the breakout sessions, and and uh one of the things I I said was I said people problems, and I said, wow, I could I can see it now. I see thought bubbles like floating out above you know everyone's head of, you know, just you're thinking names, you're thinking people, you're thinking situations of just individuals who are in the church. They're you know, maybe well-intentioned even, but you know, their sinfulness is really causing them to pursue their own agenda, their own glory, their own kingdom, not God's kingdom, and draining the life out of the leadership of the church. And, you know, and I I just I just said you know, just let pause for a minute, like raise your hand if that resonates. And like every hand in the place went up. I mean, it was silent. You could hear a pin drop because it was like, and people came after and said, Yeah, like that when it's like that is where I am at right now. People problems, and you know, it's usually not the simple, like so-and-so, you know, uh, you know, got arrested or so-and-so had an affair, or you know, those kinds of things. It's like it's never that simple, like, oh, well, we have to, you know, activate church discipline. It's like the most prominent member of the church is kind of pushing their own agenda, uh, but they're also writing all the checks, you know, and it's you know, and so so and that's where I mean, that was the situation Nehemiah was in. Like, he wasn't telling the common man, like, hey, we gotta be nice to each other. He was saying to the elite, the rich, like all the people that he had clearly activated as his supporters, and he's calling them out and saying, yo, this is for nothing if you are going to continue to pursue your own selfish, sinful ambition and not pursue proceed with God's kingdom. And treating all of your other fellow, you know, this is your family, this is your community. You're like, it's not like you're treating other people outside badly. That would be terrible. You're treating your own people, your own family, uh, in a way that's reprehensible. And that's where you see that he's shaking out his robes. He's like, he's reminding them like, I'm right here building this wall, and I'm using my own personal money to go to buy these people out of slavery to find out you're selling them right back into slavery. He's calling them out. And I mean, he could have lost his entire support base right there. And he and he didn't. He, I mean, they the people saw it, he pointed them in the direction of their sin, and they repented and they committed to to uh making immediate change. And then it was like, then once they dealt with their sin, they were able to get back to restoration so they could pursue redemption.

Chris Grainger: 40:24

100%. With the pastors in the churches you've been working with, John, where what what's the the most salient sticking point in this process with them? Like we're where are guys running into the biggest, the most amount of headwinds, if you will.

John Wilson: 40:40

Yeah. Yeah, I think I uh I call it the pew potato problem. Um so kind of speaking of people problems, it's a different kind of people problem, you know, because most people problems are really just a an off uh just a an outstretching of all of our sin collectively bumping into each other. Uh but the pew potato problem, um, and one of those we we always we joke about pew potatoes and we always say they're really nice people. Like we're not we're not diminishing the potatoes.

Chris Grainger: 41:03

Yeah, right?

John Wilson: 41:03

Yeah. Um and what we mean by that is these are the people that are really, really competent, gifted by God. They are um enterprising, they're uh, you know, really uh just active in their their work, they've got skills, they've got backgrounds, they've got all these things. Uh, but they're content to show up on Sunday morning. And actually, I would even go a step further. They've been trained to just show up on Sunday morning, right?

Chris Grainger: 41:28

Fade me, fame, fade me cycle gas.

John Wilson: 41:30

Yeah, well, consumer culture, right? I mean, I think this is this is the bigger challenge for millennial pastors. I think even uh even Gen X pastors and previously didn't have the the attention span. It's like, you know, it's like it's consumer culture, it's short attention spans, it's like, how do I get attention? Um, it's the attention economy, um, is actually the way it's been described. Uh, you know, Gary Venertchuk wrote a book called Day Trading Attention. It's all about what social media is really meant to get our attention, and like that's the whole point. If you want to profit from social media, you got to get attention.

Chris Grainger: 42:00

And so he knows about that too, man. Yeah.

John Wilson: 42:02

Yeah, man. He oh, he has become a very, very wealthy creator as a result.

Chris Grainger: 42:07

You know, really extra desk stuff, man. He's he's he's I learned a lot about podcasting with him. Anyway, he keeps going.

John Wilson: 42:14

Yeah, so you know, so we have this attention thing. And so, but at the same time, our church is like, and this is um, you know, it's I I'll I'll call it a little bit of a critique on the kind of the most recent model of churches where it's all about like, you know, big production and yeah, really live stream and you know, you know, all these things is like, I mean, all good things, you know. I mean, I, you know, I'm not not poking too many, uh taking too many shots at the Seven Mountains thing, but like, you know, at the end of the day, like the you know, anything that's gonna get someone exposed to the gospel, you know, that's that can be very positive. But with it, we've kind of gotten to this point where churches are kind of built to compete with entertainment and media and all these things. And so as a result, like people are just used to, well, it's like I pay 80 bucks to go to a concert, I go sit there and enjoy. Hopefully jump up and down a little bit and have some fun. You know, it's like you go to church for the same thing. We've we've we essentially trained people to be pure potatoes. So, and that's where, you know, what we really landed on. What's you know, we've looked at different churches, it's like this is not a um not a volunteer problem because somebody's like, oh, oh, volunteers, you just need you just need more volunteers and those kinds of things. It's a mobilization problem. And that's the thing, it's like so many times what will happen, and this is what I saw in my own church, three pastors were just they were burned out, they were exhausted, they were doing all the work themselves. And they were like, they, and they're like, oh, we have lots of people that'll say they'll show up and help. Like if they ever asked for help, you know, a dozen people would show up and say, Yeah, what do you need me to do? But what they didn't have was they didn't have mobilized leaders among those volunteers. And so this is where the Nehemiah model is like, you know, Nehemiah identified 46 champions and said, Hey, um, go work on this. And and those champions, like part of the reason they were the one is they already had a group of people around them that were used to working with them, serving with them. I some I I've kind of coined the term serving circles. You know, you have a goldsmith. Well, they had a team of people, they made jewelry. And, you know, it's like, hey, you know, goldsmith, you know, can you go build that section wall? Yeah, sure. Guys, let's go. You know, all, you know, you might have 15, 20 workers that are you, they're used to working together in a team, they come along. And um, you know, I always say to pastors, like, you know, you know who these people are. They're the ones when you call, like, in, you know, in our church, we have a fellow, his nickname's DK. It's like, if you call DK, say, hey, can you uh can you put a planter in by the church uh in the front of the church or something like that? He shows up with a dozen volunteers, the planter's done in like two hours, and then the then the uh uh you know, his wife and another team is like putting flowers in it, and it's all it's done by the end of the day. You know, it's um so it's like there's there's usually that person that just whatever they're doing, they you know, all their friends immediately show up and and they they start doing that. And so it's a mobilizing leaders is often the missing link to creating this like almost like uh an infrastructure without an infrastructure.

Chris Grainger: 45:13

This could be a my personal experience with some pastors that so I know a lot of pastors who are control freaks. I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. So they're they're very much control freaks. They have to have they have to have their hands in everything. So when you're saying mobilize people and let these guys go, is that how how do you what would be your encouragement to the guy listening, the lay, the layperson listening who has tried to go into this church to to serve in these areas and just gets you know no no doors closed, doors closed, doors closed. And at some point he just says, Screw it, I'm going home. You know, I mean, I I don't know if that if you've seen that, but I just based off my experience, there's lots of control problems within pastors and and willing to let go of some of that control.

John Wilson: 46:00

Yeah, absolutely. And well, and that's um I see it with entrepreneurs. I work with entrepreneurs a lot. It's a very similar thing. Um, I think it goes back to like we've trained people to be pew potatoes. That's another way we've trained people to be pew potatoes. Okay. Somebody raises their hand and said, I'd love to help with this, they start doing things and they get kind of shut down. Um Yeah, that you only have to do that once or twice and it's it's over. Oh yeah, they're done. I mean, you know, have you ever had seen a CEO of a company being a greeter at the front door? You know, it's like uh, you know, and I mean they're they're they're probably an awesome greeter and they're probably having a great time and everything, but um, you know, just you know, even just you know, recognizing those gifts. Um, here's what I see with entrepreneurs. I see it all the time. Uh, and it's entrepreneurs will um they will not really like it when, you know, really successful entrepreneurs hire people around them that are smarter than them and are able to do way more than they can do on their own. Uh, but the ones that are really control freaks um and really, you know, really want to be the center, it's really about them. They really struggle when somebody shows up and starts, you know, kind of taking a little of that attention away uh or you know, kind of like, you know, maybe has a little bit different perspective on what can happen. And so it's a challenge. And, you know, I always say you can only grow as big as you're willing to release because um, you know, someone who's gonna be part of everything and do everything, they're always gonna be the one that everybody's like, okay, well, I think we should do this, but let's see what Pastor So-and-so says. Um, you know, that's it is really gonna curtail it. But I think what I would say, and this is, you know, I think this is a leadership thing. Uh, you know, I got a PhD in organizational leadership. And I think one of the things that, you know, I've seen with a lot of the research, humility and leadership, servant leadership. I mean, these are models that are getting a lot of attention because those that aren't the rock star CEO, those who aren't the I'm at the center of attention, uh, those that aren't like I'm gonna control everything, like people respond better and they flourish more. And I think in a in a church context, and maybe this is the thing to say, if you feel like you're in that category, you know, I would say the playbook always is go to prayer. Go there first. Because that's, you know, because that's actually a personal spiritual development and maturity thing in and of itself. But I think the question that seems to maybe resonate most in that situation is like, are you willing to limit the discipleship opportunities with uh, you know, those that would be lay leaders in your church for sake of maintaining complete control of everything? Because to me, when you I I I I'll I'll tell you a story. I I my um my parents uh were already well along in life before I came along, so they they passed a lot earlier in my life than most people wouldn't. Um but I remember uh talking with someone who uh knew my father, and he said, you know, 20 years ago, your father asked me to teach a Sunday school class at our church for adults. And he said, uh and he said he said, uh, you know what? I just need you to do it for a month while I find somebody else.

Chris Grainger: 49:05

Yeah, that's classic.

John Wilson: 49:06

Yeah, oh yeah, classic. And he's like, and he's like, and looking back, I think we both knew that it was never gonna be just a month. Um so 20 years later, he's still teaching this class. And he said that opportunity to just lead and serve in that way changed my life. Because he's like, it forced me to be in scripture every day, it forced me to be in prayer every day, it placed me in a situation where I was being really intentional about stewarding the mission God put on my life. And so just by that simple act of asking me to do that, you know, really opened up a pathway to spiritual development and maturity just for me. Not even forget about all the people over 20 years that really benefited, including myself. I was actually, he did a, he uh did a middle school when I was in middle school, and I I was I actually got to benefit from he was just a phenomenal teacher. And he was like, he was somebody he, I think he worked in a factory or something like that. It wasn't like he wasn't a teacher by trade or anything like that. So, you know, to me, for a pastor that's really wanting to really maintain control of everything, the question is, is that so important? Are you so committed to that position that you're willing to limit the spiritual growth of those that you're you're shepherding? Um, and you know, that's something I wouldn't say that to someone I didn't have some relationship with, that I didn't have some, you know, just some kind of relational capital with. I, you know, I don't, I'm because my feeling is anyone who's really answered God's call to go into ministry full-time, they have sacrificed so much. And I I never want to dismiss that. Uh, but I do think there's a that that those that are gonna really be in control of everything, they're going to miss out on just some opportunities for themselves to be able to grow beyond just what their own personally capable of. But it's also they're they're limiting the people they're shepherding in the same way. And that's the part that I think uh can really help to break the ice there.

Chris Grainger: 51:02

That's good insights, man. And and the kind of wanted to let I'm I'm sticking with the pea thing, man. I don't know why. This is the spirit's just sticking me with the pee with the peas today. Passivity. Like speak to the guy listening right now who's being very being very passive. He knows that God's calling him to do something more in the church, but for some reason he chooses to sit on his hands and let others. And I think for me, this is like I just wrote I just wrote a piece about this around passivity, and I just feel like this is one of the things that's absolutely that and apathy. That that's the two things is taking guys out from serving in in a meaningful way. But how would you encourage a guy who's being passive right now?

John Wilson: 51:43

Yeah. Well, this is where I think the story of Nehemiah as everyman is such a good uh kind of just just thought to consider. Because the thing that you look at, Nehemiah was just an ordinary person. So much of the Bible, you're you're reading about people that God placed in prominent roles, kings and leaders and all these kinds of things. Um Nehemiah is one of the few stories that Nehemiah was just an ordinary guy.

Chris Grainger: 52:12

Yeah, he's a dude. Yep.

John Wilson: 52:13

He's living in Babylon. Uh, he's not just living, you know, surviving in Babylon, he's living well in Babylon. He's got a good job. You know, today he's driving a beamer, you know, he's, you know, he's got the nice watch, he's got the you know, the trappings of life kind of thing. Um, and so, you know, he could be just really focused on his work. He'd just be like, I'm gonna be the best hospitality, you know, CEO, you know, uh chief hospitality officer of all time and living his best life, and you know, just focused on himself and his own joys and passions of those kinds of things. And, you know, and that's kind of the world we live in. Nehemiah was intentional about prayer, and I think that's where God, you know, really was he was ready to for God's call when it came. Uh, but then God did such extraordinary things through Nehemiah. And he was a lowly person, he was a lowly position. Um, you know, in one place, uh, you know, the the role of cupbearer, in one place of the Bible, the role of cupbearer, the word that's actually used is eunuch. And I don't know that Nehemiah was a eunuch, but if you think about it, he would have grown up and been in the king's service in the palace um during the not just the Persian Empire, um, or not just the Persian Empire where he he was at the end, but the Babylonian Empire. And the Babylonian Empire was brutal, you know, and he would have had access, he would have been in the he, you know, at least in the Persian Empire, he's he's got access to the queen, you know, he's in he's in the presence of the queen. So, so at very least, metaphorically, Nehemiah's uh, you know, in this kind of uh, you know, very like kind of diminished status. Um, and at the same time, he's kind of being able to live large. And I think, I think that can be the sense of like, well, in the church, I'm not, I'm not important, I'm not powerful, I'm not, you know, influential. And so it can be like, so I'm just I'm just gonna show up on Sunday and just kind of go through the motions. Um, you know, there's that's a decision point. So, you know, Nehemiah got bad news, but then he made a decision that he was gonna do something about it. And so whether, whether a pastor or someone notices, hey, you got potential and you should step up and do something, uh, you don't have to wait for that call. You know, just step in and do it. Um, I remember early on when uh we we joined the church, uh, I was asked to be on a panel about volunteering uh in the uh the explore class, which was like the kind of the setup class. And it was like we had just been through it not that long ago. We had only just recently joined the church and um and we were helping out with a new one. And um, you know, it was like most of the things there was like things were in place. What I realized that really was not getting done that needed to be done is like there were, you know, we had a meal at the beginning and the dishes weren't getting washed. Um and you know, I was when I was in high school, I was, I was, I worked in a restaurant. I I knew how a dishwasher worked, you know. So so I found like the thing that just needed most done was like I'd go into the back, I'd take all the dishes and I'd get them all taken care of, and I'd usually sit in on the end. And uh, so we're part of this panel, and uh the pastor uh is you know asking questions, and he's starting to talking to me about like how I'm serving, and and he's like, he's like, I went back into the kitchen last week and this guy's washing dishes. I'm like, he's got his PhD. And I'm like, I'm like, Dave, you make it sound hard. Anybody can wash dishes. You don't need a PhD, you know? And uh, you know, it's like, um, you know, I think sometimes it's like, you know, the thought is like, oh, like I, you know, I'm not being asked to like give a sermon or lead worship or something like that. So I guess there's nothing that's really it's like, you know, sometimes like you know, step in like so there's always something that needs done in the church. Sure. And that's what I've seen happen in our church from a time when we had like a dozen people that kind of raised their hand and said, Okay, I'll try leading some things in the church, not just showing up to help. And each of them kind of activating their serving circles, like bringing drawing more people in. Um, on Easter Sunday this year, we did the church service in the park for the whole community. And so we have like maybe 300, 350 people who show up regularly on a Sunday morning. So it's not a huge church. Over 600 people were there that morning. There were uh donuts for the adults and coffee. There were, there was like, there was like a kind of a bag, like an Easter bag for the kids. Um, and you know, there was a full worship team, full sound system. There were chairs, there were, there were more than a hundred volunteers that were involved in this. And I was walking from my car and I bumped into our lead pastor who was preaching that morning 15 minutes before the service started, and we're shooting the breeze. We're like, you know, talking about, oh, this is so great. It's so cool to see this coming through. Um, and you know, him being like just relaxed. And I just think, man, five years ago, I just remember he was like, should I even be doing this or should I just throw in the towel? Like, I'm exhausted, I'm burned out, I'm like, you know, I'm just I feel feeling ineffectual. And seeing, you know, this massive thing happening, 100 people showing up to volunteer. And part of the reason we did the service in the church that day was we had another 50 to 75 volunteers renovating this the sanctuary and doing a full like remodel. Um, and it was closed. That was the week where they just couldn't be in it. So it was like we're like, I hope the weather's good because we don't have a backup plan. And uh, so um, you know, just that just to see like, you know, uh the 50% of the church like volunteering, and that was not because the three pastors were mobilizing 150 people, the three pastors are now mobilizing, you know, a dozen or you know, maybe 20, 20, 25 leaders who are in turn owning ministries and really moving, you know, moving the ministry forward.

Chris Grainger: 57:49

Man, that's an incredible story, John. That what what a way. What that's I think that's a good way to wrap up the knee of mine. Now let's do a fun some lightning round to have a little fun here at the end. And then uh then man, just I've had so much fun with you today, buddy, already. So what's what's your favorite hobby? Like, what do you enjoy doing for fun, John?

John Wilson: 58:07

Yeah, if it was anything, it'd be scuba diving. I uh I learned scuba dive uh when I was 14 years old. Um, I have been diving uh all over the world, not all the way, like I haven't been like to Indonesia and uh Australia and stuff yet, but like all over the Caribbean, all over the you know southern states, uh into the islands, South America, um, you know, Italy, a little bit of Europe. Uh I I love scuba diving. That's definitely my uh my favorite activity.

Chris Grainger: 58:33

Oh, okay. Now, if you could have a superpower, John, like which one would you uh choose and how would you use it?

John Wilson: 58:41

Yeah, I I gotta say, I think uh the Bible answers that question for us. I'm going with Solomon on wisdom. Okay. Um and I would just uh use that to deal with whatever life throws at me. And you know, if if I'm uh you know, I I guess the right answer is, and I I I hope this is usually my answer, but I know sometimes it's not, but I think I would really want to point that at like how you know how do I, you know, just answer God's call faithfully to spread the gospel and be completely forgotten.

Chris Grainger: 59:13

Amen. What's your all-time favorite movie, John? What's your go-to?

John Wilson: 59:18

Yeah, I would say uh it's such a hard I'm always it's always a jump ball for me the between a couple. Um I think I would say my favorite of all time is Finding Forester. Um though uh Gladiator and uh the Dead Poet Society are like close second, so it's always hard for me to uh to sift through those three.

Chris Grainger: 59:38

But there you go, bro. There you go. Now you're you're in Pennsylvania, right? I am Philadelphia, yeah. What's so what's what's your go-to food up there, man? Like what's your what what's your comfort food that you're that you're leaning in on? Group on and off.

John Wilson: 59:56

I'm now part of a startup that's doing an app for restaurants. So I think I love exploring food, is what I would say. Is I am always looking for my next kind of culinary adventure. Yeah. Um, I think probably the most prominent one that I always think of, I'll never forget. Um, the company I worked for after 15 years gave a sabbatical. And so I took my family to Spain in 2015. My kids were between the ages of five and 10, and we were in an area for a while called San Sebastian or Donostia, depending on which uh which language you um you you use. Uh it was like four blocks of solid, like uh little pubs that had they called them pinchos, uh or uh they no, well, they'd be like tapas. I actually I can't remember what re the regional name was different, but um, it was like you'd have hundreds of like these little finger, like one item dishes. And so every night you'd you'd try three. three or four of them and just you know it was like everything was unique, different. It was artisanal. They looked beautiful and they were like t flavors you never even thought of. It was so that one's a really like I would say my my favorite comfort food is trying something new.

Chris Grainger: 1:01:05

Nice, brother. Nice. Love it. Love it. What's uh looking back over the last 12 months, you know, where did you spend too much time doing John? Anything that's been a time waste for you.

John Wilson: 1:01:18

Yeah, uh that is a hard one. I would say uh I just just you know streaming media like streaming streaming TV like you know just a TV series those kinds of things um it's a mix because I find I that's like the one thing that I do that I can kind of unwind we at the you know like I if I read I get my head engaged it's like I'm not you know and I and I I would say I I tend to be a little bit of a workaholic I think I've really improved on this in years like I made a pretty big life change decision career wise five years ago and so I I feel like I made a big step but it's like it's hard for me to unplug so I'll watch TV but then you know I feel like you know my wife commented the other day like wow you've seen so many series uh you know because I usually don't just watch something until it's done so it's like but it's like yeah I think that's probably not the best use of my time. Um I what I would like I'm I'm I think I've been really intentional with my kids. I remind everybody how many weekends they have left with their kids. I'm like how old are your kids? You know 18 minus that number times 52 that's how many weekends you have left because I didn't start thinking about that until I was negative one and my son went off to college my my oldest and um man it goes so quick. And so um I would you know I've I've been really intentional about spending more time uh being influenced with my kids and I feel like that's one of the main I mean that's like the primary uh ministry God gave me is I got this you know house full of now teenagers and um yeah so um I should be I should spend less time watching TV and more time floating in my pool because that's like the one place where I uh just kind of unplug a little bit and just you know like uh you know a family of whoever's around are like hey let's go float for a few you know for 15 minutes and just have a conversation and uh just you know no devices none of that that's right love it man love it what's your favorite thing about God that is really hard um you know because there's there's those easy things to say like you know God's love uh God's sacrifice you know all those things he did for me you look through scripture and that is like you know even that becomes a self-centered thing it's like God's done great things for me so like life is good I love God like why why wouldn't we you know the good father um man it's so much bigger than that like God is you know just a praise worthy beyond measure and worthy of our praise you know righteous true all powerful all-knowing um you know and just interested you know I I think to me the fact that I mean if I was God of the universe like I gotta tell you like I would not care about you know these little ants running around on a on a on a a little globe in the middle of all this massiveness. You know I'd be thinking about creating the next thing like I mean just the fact that he comes into our lives like he wants to be involved his interest he's given us scripture so that we can get a glimpse of him you know C.S. Lewis talked about like it's like this world is like a shadow of heaven of the world to come and we just get this tiny little glimpse that he would give us that and that he would not just like interact with us like and from a high position but send Jesus to to to be with us to live here to live that perfect life and then to die just take all of our sins on himself defeat death defeat sin um and then resurrected to life that we could have life abundantly man what is happening you know like that is just let's go that's it let's flip it 180 what's what's your least favorite thing about the evil one oh just so insidious so enticing you know so um it's just those little moments you know that it's just like you're like oh that it felt so noble when I said it and it was it was motivated by you know narcissism it was motivated by you know self-comfort it was motivated by fear of man it was motivated by these things and it's just pointing back to a deep heart issue and a just a wrong view of God putting myself in God's place and it's like it can be somebody pulling out in front of me a little too close. It can be it can be uh I think I'll serve I'll look really good um you know it's um oh I just want to do something fun I know God wants me to do this but I'm just gonna set that aside it's those those little things that the enemy just uh it knows exactly what what it is for each one of us. He knows exactly what to throw at us.

Chris Grainger: 1:05:52

Got that right brother last question for you John is what do you hope the listeners remember the most from our conversation today?

John Wilson: 1:06:01

Yeah I I think humbly serve God take a step out and do things that you don't think are possible. Be that or you know it's being as ordinary as we all are like recognizing that God can do amazing things through ordinary people. But in the end just spread the gospel and be totally forgotten. But Nehemiah was completely forgotten. That's the one thing we don't really know about Nehemiah is when his term of governor ended. You can look at historical record you can look at all these things there's there's theories he was you know governor for you know 30 plus years but but we don't know when it ended. He was forgotten. He was forgotten in his own time and largely forgotten even in our time even though the story is there in the Bible. And so I think that's that's really ultimately what we're called to do in the gospel.

Chris Grainger: 1:06:50

Man amen well John where do you want to send guys to get to get a copy of your book to connect with you I don't know if you have any social media platforms areas that you that you like to serve but yeah definitely point them.

John Wilson: 1:07:01

Yeah absolutely um so the book's available on Amazon but if you go directly to the publisher it's about five dollars cheaper so you can get it at gcdiscipleship.com uh gospel center discipleship is the publisher um and you can also even get them even cheaper if you if you're buying books if you're buying bulk like if you want to do the workshop guide that's in there um if you want to do that with your church like you can buy them uh from the publisher at a bulk rate too um I am also uh you know I've started a YouTube channel called the Nehemiahway uh where I'm I'm kind of showing my work I'm like digging into like the chapter by chapter through Nehemiah but also it's just a lot of practical things for millennial pastors that are passionate about the spread of the gospel they really want to build their churches but want some practical input um that's there as well and then the uh third thing is I have a free resource kit if you go to the nehemiaway.com there's a free resource kit for pastors uh you can do like an analytic like a almost like a diagnostic on mobile mobilizing people in your church um there's a kind of a checklist for um mobilizing volunteer leaders and also a reading list um if you want to hear the audio version of the book of Nehemiah I'm doing a reading series right now where I'm just reading the book each day it's a 31-day daily reading um and then there's also on Audible the book is available as uh as an audio as well so nice nice okay we'll try to get some of those links in the in the show notes for you listeners out there John this has been awesome thank you so much brother for for coming on for sharing powerful story here with a Neomile Way so just prayers for you as you move forward buddy likewise Chris thanks so much for having me I love what you're doing just helping uh those are just you know awaken that lion within uh that's it God has given us love it have a great day man you too man life can feel heavy and too often we try to carry it along at the Lion Within Us we build a Christ centered community where you can go connect grow and be encouraged by brothers who get it and now joining is easier than ever we've lowered access to just $1599 a month.

Chris Grainger: 1:09:10

Inside you'll unlock our daily spiritual kickoffs our Bible studies lion lunches Friday forge and most importantly a space to be real remember every man needs a stronghold and you don't have to fight alone to get started visit thelionwithin.us we'd love to welcome you in that's thelionwithin.us I'll see you inside all right guys I told you that was going to be a fun one so thankful for for John for sharing go check out the Nehemiah way go get a copy of the book so you're not gonna be disappointed particularly for you guys who are in leadership positions in churches or maybe like a deacon or something like that. This gives you a really good framework on how to take things to church to think to get to to get the ball moving if you will okay so our question of the week this week is where has God called you you not not your buddy called you to step up and serve. Now once you know that information it's one thing to have it as information in your in your back pocket it's another thing to actually put it into work. Your challenge here listen to the lion put it into work go do the thing that he has called you to do that simple. All right so fellas thank you for listening come back on Friday we'll have a fun Friday episode with a health well self tip. We have some dad jokes for you obviously lots of fun things we try to encourage you with on your Fun Friday episodes give us a rating and review please head over to thelionwithin.us I'm just that's the one ass thelionwithin.us check out our resources join the daily spiritual kickoff for free join our community that's an easy way to start a 30-day free trial just to see what the community is all about. And if you're interested in the leadership mastermind if you're really ready to go deep and improve on your discipleship journey consider filling out a leadership mastermind assessment. We'll connect we'll have a conversation and we'll see if it's right for you. Okay so all that can be found at thelionwithin.us you can always open up your Bible app as well from new version open that Bible app up search for the lion within us follow us right there and connect with one of our many many read reading plans that we have out there on the Bible app. Hopefully you guys will enjoy those all right so guys have a great day get after it thelionwithin.us is where you find all our resources and you know it's coming keep unleashing the lion within