Chris Grainger: 0:53

Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders God intends you to be. I'm your host, chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, fellas, this is your meat episode. Let's get right into it, okay? So the scripture of the week this week is in the book of Proverbs, the 29th proverb, the 18th verse. It says where there is no vision, the people perish, but he that keepeth the law happy is he. So, fellas, take some time. If you want to know a little bit more about how to simplify and apply that one verse to your life, go back one of your podcast feed to the spiritual kickoff episode for this week. I took some time to unpack that at length, hopefully to give you some insights and some ways to take that scripture and walk it out. And if you're looking for ways to do that, monday through Friday, the Lion Within us, we have what we call our daily spiritual kickoff. It's a great way to get your day started and guess what? It's completely free. So head over to thelionwithinus to get started for today. Okay, all right, fellas.

Chris Grainger: 1:52

Well, this is going to be a fun one. This is Dave Jones, affectually today. Okay, all right, fellas. Well, this is going to be a fun one. This is Dave Jones, affectionately known as Super Dave. You'll find out about that once you get into the conversation, but he has a really rare combo he was a professional athlete, he served in the military and he spent a lot of time studying psychology.

Chris Grainger: 2:11

This is a really fun conversation. He played pro hockey in Europe, fellas, and really just a good conversation around. What is it like to be a Christ follower? What does it look like in the market so far as those out there that are wanting to serve Christ in a meaningful way, how can we actually bring the best version of ourselves into the work that we do? And it's just a really fun, insightful conversation. Hopefully you guys are going to enjoy this one. He actually lives in North Carolina, so we have that in common as well. He's actually right down the road from where our farm is here in North Carolina. So fun guy, lots of energy, lots of insights. So enjoy this conversation with Dave Jones. Dave, welcome to the Lion Within Us. How are you doing today?

Dave Jones: 2:57

I'm doing awesome. Thanks for having me today, man. I'm super excited to talk to you.

Chris Grainger: 3:01

For sure, for sure. I mean we always like to start the show with. You know pretty easy to get our listeners to know you. So what's something fun about you that maybe not many people know about?

Dave Jones: 3:12

What's something fun. My nickname is Super Dave. Super Dave, and why is that so? Years ago I did pretty well at hockey. I played pro hockey in Europe and after my hockey career I, you know, sort of didn't do anything. And then I got really fat, chris, I just got overweight, and so I said, you know what, I need to do something about this. So I, I joined CrossFit and, um, I did really well with CrossFit and, uh, the local box just gave me the name Super Dave.

Dave Jones: 3:48

And because I have the most common name in the world, dave Jones, it's just easier to go places and order things. And you know the dry cleaners, all the Dave Jones you know, even in my, you know my golf club. You know like there's three of us. So it's hey, I'm playing golf with super Dave today, or hey, this is super Dave's meal. So it was funny. Uh, last week, um, or last weekend, we were at the golf course and and the pro was like both my kids were there and they're like you call your dad super. It's kind of weird. So my kids call me super there you go.

Chris Grainger: 4:25

That's pretty good. Well, I love to hear your story, your testimony, particularly how you came to know Christ man. So get our listeners up to speed.

Dave Jones: 4:35

Yeah. So, like I was saying I did, yeah, so, um, so, like I was saying, I did pretty well at hockey in high school. I won a couple of state championships and then I went on to Ottawa to play and then and then to um, cleveland and then overseas in Europe. But the first year I won the state championship, um, I was uh, 16. And, uh, after that it was a big celebration.

Dave Jones: 4:59

I went out and got drunk. I mean, I got drunk really bad, and my brother, who is attending Moody Bible Institute, was coming home that weekend. It was really providential and I, just when I tell this story, I can remember myself laying on the bed and just my head was just throbbing and my brother came in and said hey, man, you want to live like this? And I was like no. And he said do you want to receive Jesus as your Lord and savior? I'm like yes, and so I confessed right there. Um, wow, I will say that I was 16 and you know it took about four years for that seed to really, you know, sit there and it really started taking off when I was 21, 22.

Chris Grainger: 5:38

Sure, I'm sure. I mean, I've never played hockey, but I've been around a lot of other sports and I'm sure, as you elevate, in hockey too it's very secular. So I mean, how was it walking that that discipleship journey out? You know, playing a sport around lots of temptations.

Dave Jones: 5:55

Yeah, I mean that's, that's really kind of when I my career started powering down is when my relationship with Christ started powering up. Okay, well, quite honestly, because you know, of all the sports you know, I would say hockey is the darkest sport.

Chris Grainger: 6:10

Why is that? I'm curious, that's, that's interesting.

Dave Jones: 6:13

Yeah, um, I don't know why. I mean, I have some ideas why, but I just think that you know, it's a very violent sport. It's not supported very well with, you know, christians, you know, whereas football there's just a very stronger population of Christians, whereas hockey comes from the Eastern Europe game, you know, from Canada, it's not really an American game and so, um, you know, it's just, it's just a dark sport there's no way to say so.

Dave Jones: 6:44

It's just, it's just not now. I think it's gotten better, you know, with FCA and Hockey Ministries International. You know they're involved and Liberty University is, you know they're involved and but liberty university is, you know, is out there, you know, um, along with um, grand canyon university. So there's some other universities coming along that are bethel and minnesota, that are, you know, a faith-based or a methodist background, that happen to play hockey yeah, yeah, I mean for me.

Chris Grainger: 7:12

I mean I grew up in the south and we didn't have hockey until the carolina got our team you and now we have the Canes, but I mean, still it's. It seems somewhat foreign to me as someone who just never, I just never had that opportunity to play the game, and it just wasn't something that we played in the South. So how did you get introduced to it?

Dave Jones: 7:32

So I grew up in northwest Pennsylvania. My brother was a goalie. He was nine years older than me and um, my brother, um, you know, he got in trouble a lot and so he was, you know, in my mind he was seeking attention that way and I didn't really want to do it that way.

Dave Jones: 7:47

So I just, I don't know, I was five, six, seven, I, I didn't have a you know subliminal thought for sure, but I just started scoring goals and people gave me accolades for that, so I thought I'll just try to score more goals, right, so it became something positive, you know. That's cool man, that's awesome.

Chris Grainger: 8:07

Well, I know you said, after your hockey is when things really ramped up with Christ, I'm assuming, within your work as well. So like how did you? You know, what did that look?

Dave Jones: 8:18

like Kind of walk us into the down that path. Yeah, so I I left, uh, I left Germany, I went and coached out in Colorado and I and I came back my fiance wife now of 25 years, Um, she got a job in Greenville, North Carolina, Okay, and uh, and so it was making twice what I was making as a youth hockey coach, and so we just trekked across the country from Denver to Greenville and I took a job with Fox TV and it's the first time I've ever been really in a cubicle and honestly, Chris, I was really just challenging my life and asking the Lord, like, what do you want to do with it? Because this sucks.

Dave Jones: 8:59

Like I don't want to sit in this cubicle and I said a prayer, right there at my desk, and I found myself, you know, looking at a list of Christians on the TV station and I didn't hear an audible voice. But I just had the idea of like, okay, I'll start an ad agency, what do I call it? And immediately marketing ministries came to mind and I thought that was the dumbest name. Like marketing and ministries, like Lord, this is like two common names. And so I didn't know what to do. So I got a lawyer and the lawyer, you know, did a search and, sure enough, it was available.

Dave Jones: 9:34

And so I'm like wow, this wasn't such a dumb idea, yeah.

Chris Grainger: 9:36

Yeah.

Dave Jones: 9:38

And so I just started the company in November 2001. I had no idea what I was doing. I just, I think probably my hockey background, you know. It was just like, okay, go get some clients. I went back to that list of all I think there were. I think there were 30 clients on that list. I went to them in June and said I'm going to start this agency called Marketing Ministries. I think like 27 of them said we're with you.

Chris Grainger: 10:02

I'm like awesome.

Dave Jones: 10:05

So I started the company in January. November I registered, but in January is when I really started. It Went back to that list, chris, and they all looked at me like a cow at a new gate. They're like what? Like no, we're not with you Really. So they backed off. They backed off. I had three of those clients. Two of them are still with me today. That first year I did $15,000 of revenue and I made 15%. Wow, yeah. Second year, 30,000 of revenue and I made 15%. Second year, $30,000, 15%. Third year, I think it was up to $200,000. I made 15%. 15% of $200,000 is $30,000 a year. I was crushing it, man, taking the world on fire. In year three, year four doubled and year five it doubled, and then I would never look back, right.

Chris Grainger: 11:01

Yeah, and that's probably the lesson a lot of small business owners need to hear too. Like I mean, usually the quick wins just aren't there.

Dave Jones: 11:11

At least that's not what your experience and what I hear from many it's taken me 25 years now to be an overnight success. Right, right yeah. Yeah, that's been Go ahead Sorry.

Chris Grainger: 11:25

I would say speak to the guy listening, man. I just finished writing an article on this and I just don't like, since you started, since you went down this path, it's worth exploring. I met with an executive several years ago and she's, and so this is a fortune five, probably fortune 100 company actually. She was pretty high up, but she told me something that stuck with me and she said think big, act small. And she was just like that is where most people get it wrong in business. Is they really just get caught in the beehives and chasing that versus taking the diligent steps that God has put in front of us to do each and every day? So maybe the year one, year two, walk us through some of that, those small steps that you were taking just to be, you know, laying the path and staying on the path that God's called you to do.

Dave Jones: 12:10

Yeah. So you know, I have my doctorate in sport and performance psychology and so I, when I get asked this question, I go back to me and the me back then was not, I didn't. I knew I didn't like me, like I had a poor self image. I tore down people. I thought the more I tore down people, the better I would be. You know, you've probably been in some room with some of those people, like they just, and so I was one of those. My self image I had two slap shots in the face, broke my nose in three different directions, like I had 56 stitches in my face, like I just really didn't like who I was. And I am so thankful for this mentor who I met in a Taco Bell in Wilson, north Carolina, and he basically we just became friends and he said you know, if you don't like who you are, here's 30 books for you to read in the next two years. At the time, television was how we consume media. He said turn off the TV and read these books. And I did, yeah.

Chris Grainger: 13:18

I'm curious. I'm finding your mentor at Taco Bell Wilson, like I've been. I'm in North Carolina, I live in North Carolina.

Dave Jones: 13:25

For those who don't know.

Chris Grainger: 13:26

there's nothing in Wilson, so like how'd you find this guy at?

Dave Jones: 13:31

Wilson, I was. I was working for Fox TV and I was calling on clients to get business to advertise on the station local businesses, I just happened to be in Taco Bell and you just struck up a conversation with this guy.

Chris Grainger: 13:45

Yeah, man, that's incredible. It sounds like God was in that moment big time.

Dave Jones: 13:50

Or 1,000%. I don't believe in coincidence at all. It was ordained man for sure. We're still friends today. He just mentored me along and just really show, show me what it meant to be a a man of God, yeah.

Chris Grainger: 14:08

Wow. So what was some of the books that you remember the most or some of the things from? Do you remember anything from those for that list?

Dave Jones: 14:15

Oh yeah, Um, let's see Maximize manhood, how to think and grow rich.

Chris Grainger: 14:22

Yeah.

Dave Jones: 14:24

Um, how to win friends and influence people. Um, uh, um, um. Did I say maximize manhood, the Five Love Languages.

Chris Grainger: 14:41

Oh, gary, yeah, yeah.

Dave Jones: 14:44

The.

Chris Grainger: 14:44

Basic Tenets of Christianity what's that? So we've had Gary on the show before. He's awesome yeah.

Dave Jones: 14:53

Rich Dad, Poor Dad. Rich God, Poor God, Nice yeah.

Chris Grainger: 14:59

So this guy gave you a salient set of books that definitely were very impactful, yeah.

Dave Jones: 15:06

Who Moved my Cheese. That was a big one that one got. Who Moved my Cheese got me through COVID.

Chris Grainger: 15:12

How's that? I mean? First of all, let's take a break, then you can come back, explain what who Moved my Cheese is for the guys who haven't read it before, and then dive into what that meant for you at COVID. We'll be right back. Guys, I've got something big to share. We're making a major shift because we know the battle is real and it's time more men had access to the support they need.

Chris Grainger: 15:36

For too long, guys have been trying to carry the weight alone pressure at work, tension at home, wounds from the past, in a world that demands strength but offers no place to rest. We see it, we've lived it, and that's exactly why we built our community. It's a stronghold, a place where warriors can find rest, truth and a band of brothers standing beside them. And starting now, we're making it easier than ever to step in. We've lowered the barrier to just $15.99 a month. That means, for less than the cost of a drive-thru lunch, you can join a brotherhood that's centered on Christ and built for growth. Inside you'll find access to our daily spiritual kickoffs every Monday through Friday, our Lion Lunches, our Bible Studies, our Friday Forge Gatherings all that and so much more.

Chris Grainger: 16:20

Every man needs a stronghold and you don't have to fight alone. If you've been waiting for the right time to jump in, this is it. Go to thelionwithinus and join the community and see for yourself what happens when iron truly sharpens iron. All right, dave, so kind of explain, you know, first of all, just the premise of who Moved my Cheese is a great book. Just kind of get the guys up to speed on that one and then like, how did that impact you in this season of COVID?

Dave Jones: 16:50

Yeah, so who Moved my Cheese is about Hem and Haw and Sniff and Scurry, and so what they do? They live in this maze and every day Hem and Haw go to the same corner and Sniff and Scurry go to the same corner. I think Hem and Haw were mice and Sniff and Scurry were like little people, I think that was the anyway. So they all go to the same corner. But one day someone moves the cheese and so Sniff and Scurry say somebody moved the cheese, let's go throughout, let's go look for other cheese, Whereas Hem and Haw they stick around and they basically Hem and Haw.

Dave Jones: 17:30

They go from day to day going. Somebody's going to bring the cheese, Maybe the cheese is behind the wall, Maybe we missed it, Maybe we'll just wait and see and just say hem and haw, Whereas sniff and scurry man, they're finding crumbs. You know it's not a big chunk of cheese, but they're finding crumbs in these different parts of the maze and they end up surviving and hem and haw do not, because they hem and haw. And so how that got me through COVID is, you know, the cheese moved during COVID 100%, and so, like this may not be popular, but the church shut down and they were hem and haw, they were not sniffing scurry, and I think today we're still feeling that. Where people figured out how to do community without the church, because the church wasn't there for them, they bent the knee under the safety security guise of the government and I think people caught on to that.

Dave Jones: 18:31

That's just one example, and so, as a local business owner, you couldn't bend a knee to safety and security, which we all know now was not safe or secure. It was the opposite was safe and secure. And so you had to figure out how to change your business model and survive, and so you had to be sniff and scurry.

Chris Grainger: 18:53

So practically for you. What did that?

Dave Jones: 18:54

look like. It meant serve unconditionally. It meant be creative. It meant ask questions of how can we change your business model, how can we figure out how to make this work? It was not. Well, let's shut down. Everybody go home. We're not going to do anything. It's safe for you to be at home. Uh-uh, we are sniffing, scurry. My whole staff read the book. We said, hey, we're going to do anything. It's safe for you to be at home. We are sniff and scurry. My whole staff read the book. We said, hey, we're going to be sniff and scurry. We don't know the answer, but we're going to ask questions. We're going to help people figure out a business model that works, and we are going to be here.

Chris Grainger: 19:32

I remember back during that time, particularly for marketing, there were areas that many businesses looked at, as you know, non-essential. They pulled a lot of that funding back. So I'm sure for you guys it was it was, you know, we got to make a pivot. We got to make a pivot now.

Dave Jones: 19:49

You know, on top of that, chris, google basically said church was a hate speech. So if you're running a Christian agency and you know you have nonprofits that you're marketing and they're saying that everything within the Christian space is hate speech, how are you going to use Google, you know? And so we had to come up with. You know, if church is hate speech and they're you know, remember they were shadow banning and deplatforming you know. And so we we had to say, okay, let join us in community instead of join us at this church. So we had to change the language. We had to be sniff and skirt.

Chris Grainger: 20:25

That's crazy. So the marketing agency? So is your primary demographic? Are you working with ministries, churches, 501c3s, things like that? From the kingdom impact standpoint?

Dave Jones: 20:40

That's exactly it. So our vertical is Jesus. If clients are, you know, trying to glorify the Lord with their talents and their abilities in some space, whether they're a Christian business owner with a secular business or there's, you know there's a ministry, whether it's a church or just you know ministry out there, you know, trying to raise donations for humanitarian support, whatever it is that's our vertical and we're, to my knowledge, we're one of four agencies and we're the oldest right now in the space. Really wow congratulations, man thanks.

Chris Grainger: 21:13

It's hard for me to say that that we're the oldest in the Christian marketing space, really, because I know where I came from what do you see that's working the most right now, from your end, for these churches, for these organizations, to get awareness to people out there, particularly guys. Speak to the guys out there. What's working?

Dave Jones: 21:35

Yeah, so I'm just going to give a little background here. This is my 25th year in this space. I can remember when you know, television was an undisputed heavyweight champion when it comes to reaching the most amount of people for the least amount of money. Television was it. You know there was a time where email was it Direct mail? Going way back, direct mail was it Yellow pages? I remember having conversations with yellow pages in the penny saver, like that was you know, business off that today it's influencers.

Dave Jones: 22:11

There is a big shift in legacy media right now. So those of you't know, legacy media is like the traditional media, like ABC, nbc, cbs. You know those legacy broadcast stations. I suspect five to seven years from now those won't be around Because all these other channels and influencers and podcasts are popping up like your podcast, and influencers and podcasts are popping up like your podcast. You know, like people are listening and consuming you and your guests versus consuming Late Night with Jimmy Fallon. That's right. And so you're getting the media now and you're getting what you want. Broadcast media was just that.

Dave Jones: 22:55

There was a time I think you and I are probably right around the same age I'm 51. There was a time when you know there was NBC, abc and CBS, and you remember when Fox came and they're like Fox. There's gonna be no space for Fox cartoons in prime time. That'll never work. And here we are with the Simpsons 20 some years later. Right, that are still going strong.

Dave Jones: 23:17

And so you had to take in the Brady Bunch, right, you had to take in, like these, legacy media. Now you know there is no such thing as broadcast media. You know you can watch the NHL Network. You don't have to watch ESPN, you know. And so with influencers, what's interesting? One, it's trackable so you can cancel. Two, there's a built-in trust already there. So people that are watching your podcast, they believe you, chris. And so marketers that come in, christian marketers, come in and say, okay, chris is promoting this, I believe what he's saying. Therefore, I'm more likely to buy the product or invest in the product or donate to the ministry. So, influencers, we spend probably a million and a half a month in influencers right now through 38 to 41 different clients around the world that are looking for donation, purchase a product. You know, whatever it is, influencers are working.

Chris Grainger: 24:21

Wow, wow. So I mean, and that's, you're seeing that as an impact for like churches directly? Then, huh, so an influencer talks about the mission or the organization or whatever it may be, and then that gives them a lot of I guess, a lot of traffic and eyeballs Built in trust.

Dave Jones: 24:38

Yeah, versus, you know it airing on Fox TV and it's a general commercial Mm-hmm, you know Wow.

Chris Grainger: 24:48

In the Christian space. How do you find the influencers? What are they doing that works the best? That are gaining the most trust? Is it podcasts? Is it YouTube? Is it other types of media.

Dave Jones: 25:00

Rumble Rumble's a good place. The Blaze Network is a good place. Oh yeah, salem's a good place. You know there's also now like we had a meeting, you know, a couple weeks ago, with influencers in the gun space, you know, just doing gun podcasts, you know. So if you're a conservative, you know, if you're a right-wing, bible toting gun, gun toting Christian right. Conservative, you know having a gun podcaster say, hey, I believe in this ministry. It's a built in trust.

Chris Grainger: 25:38

Wow, that's awesome. What about, like, we have a couple? Well, I'm in North Carolina, are you out of North Carolina as well? I'm in Raleigh, yeah, okay. Well, I'm right up the road from you, so I'm about 30 minutes from Raleigh. So we have a megachurch in Raleigh with the Summit Church. I'm sure there's other meg church, there's other mega churches out there. What do you see? Is anything from the mega church standpoint that you see that you're leveraging, or is that because I hear good and bad from you know the mega church model for so far as capturing attention for people?

Dave Jones: 26:14

Are we talking marketing or just straight up Christianity in general?

Chris Grainger: 26:21

Marketing mainly. But I'm also just curious just in your personal take on the megachurch because you're heavily involved in it sounds like lots of different ministries out there, so I know there's lots of pros and cons. I'm just curious on just your personal position as well.

Dave Jones: 26:39

Okay. So the mega church um, I will say that barna does really good research in this area on mega churches. So I'm definitely not like a expert on this, but you know, I would encourage listeners to, you know, consume some barna research. The latest that I read is that church attendance is down but Christianity is up. So people are, people are getting the word of God. They're just not doing it in a traditional way. So the mega church ministries, you know, you know there's. I would say that they're somewhat working. You know, personally, I just I think that the I'm not sure I want to say this. This is why I'm hesitating.

Dave Jones: 27:36

I've always been opposed to rows. I like tables. Okay, yeah, I don't know. So when you're talking about rows, it's a one-way dialogue, when you're talking about tables, it's a collaboration, it's a conversation, and so I just don't know that we consume that way anymore. We interact, we engage, we make comments, we share, we follow, we like Right, we share, we follow, we like Right. And so, you know, the model of the church to me goes back to, you know, christ and what he did. I mean, he didn't put up a building, did he? He walked and he talked and he preached and he engaged and he preached and he engaged.

Chris Grainger: 28:29

Yeah, even the early Acts, the model of the church in the book of Acts speaks about, you know, gathering in homes and families, coming together and doing life, and that definitely leads to, like you said, genuine conversations, reflections, wrestling with different topics, you know, in a biblical way, because I mean, there's texts out there that I wrestle with all the time, but it does me much better. I think that's what works for us at the Lion, the way we do it, because we come together in such a format. It's not one of us preaching down to them all, it's all of us. Okay, collectively, ephesians 6. Let's talk about this together and see, you know, what's the Spirit showing you? Okay, well, it's the Spirit showing you and, man, it has been incredible to see the different types of revelations that we each individually see, but collectively, you bring that thought process together, man, there's some pretty incredible things going to happen.

Dave Jones: 29:23

It's powerful, right, I mean there's a space for group therapy. That's powerful, right, I mean there's a space for group therapy. That's the church it's not designed to do, to collaborate. I mean you could say, well, we have small groups. Okay, yeah, you have small groups. That's great, that's awesome, but the business model of the church it just I don't know, to me it doesn't work. The churches that I've been involved, there's usually somebody I call it. Just, I don't know, to me it doesn't work. When the churches that I've been involved, there's usually somebody.

Dave Jones: 29:51

I call him big C, you know there's somebody in the marketplace that is like funding it Right. And then little C's the church, where it's like, okay, the tithes and offerings are, you know, part of keeping the lights on, but if there's any major like you know thing you want to do, you've got to bring in little C to start it and to maintain it and so, yeah. So I was saying there's, there's a spot for group therapy. Yeah, I mean, I think you're, you're seeing it, yeah, yeah.

Chris Grainger: 30:26

And look at the stats on like the guys in the churches too. I mean, you're all over it. I think there's something to be said about you know sitting down and feel like you're being, you know, told everything you're doing wrong for 30 minutes a week and singing songs that make it sound like Jesus is your boyfriend and like some of that stuff just turns off so many guys, man.

Chris Grainger: 30:47

It's like wait a minute now, like friend and like some of that stuff just turns off so many guys. Man, it's like wait a minute now, like that's not gonna get it. Or we say a men's group and that men's group gets together, has a sausage biscuit every, you know, every third saturday, and then when there's a speaker, uh, and then that's it. I mean, but we're not actually having anything deeper than surface level conversations and until that happens, uh, we're just spinning the wheels.

Dave Jones: 31:06

We that's right.

Chris Grainger: 31:06

We're just pretending.

Dave Jones: 31:14

What I'm most fired up right now about and I've been here for about two years- is messaging, messaging, okay, messaging.

Chris Grainger: 31:21

So if I were to say, chris, hold on for a second, dave, let's take a quick break and come back and let you unpack that. Most men are fighting battles. No one sees Strain marriages, silent wounds, pressure to lead without a place to rest. That's why we created our community to help build, strength, sharpen and support brothers just like you. And now it's even easier to join than ever. We've lowered access to just $15.99 a month. Immediately, you'll get our daily spiritual kickoffs, our Bible studies, lion Lunches, friday Forge and so much more. Every man needs a stronghold and you don't have to fight alone. Join today at thelionwithinus that's thelionwithinus and get started today. All right, dave. So you said you're fired up, which really got my my ears. Then you said messaging.

Dave Jones: 32:17

So now, like, explain that for us, unpack that yeah, if I were to say to you hey, chris, you need to, you need to become a fully devoted follower of Jesus Christ. Okay, if we were to unpack that you don't know what that means and I don't know what that means and I'm telling you that you need to do that, right? So it really doesn't take us anywhere. In fact, it's me telling you what to do, and so it perhaps puts a wall between us, because now, unasked for advice is criticism, and so now you're going. Who is this guy to tell me I need to be a fully devoted follower of Jesus Christ, right? Yep, yep, so little difference here.

Dave Jones: 33:05

So scenario B is hey, chris, I want to explore what it looks like with you to become a fully devoted follower of Jesus Christ. See the difference? Oh, yeah. Or, hey, chris, I want to explore the Bible with you. I want to learn. Hey, chris, I want to explore, I want to discover what it means to be a man of God with you. I want to learn acres. I want to explore, I want to discover what it means to be a man of god with you. Can we do?

Chris Grainger: 33:32

that together that invitation, right I'm curious to get your take on this, because you, man, when you said messaging, I was thinking about it because my writing coach, when I first started writing, he kept talking to me he's like you write too much in command style, but you gotta stop that. He's like, so you're gonna draw people in with reflection and where you're. You know, here's the way I see the world. What, what? Here's some things I've experienced here. I've been reflecting on this and I will tell you just by looking at the statistics. But I mean, he's right. When we made that change, our email list went up, our subscribers went up, our community members went up. Youversion reached out to us and said hey, you know, we want more of what you're doing. You know we have 40 something thousand followers on YouVersion. Now it's just, it's been crazy with that little change where we're not saying do this or or burn Like that's not the message, man.

Chris Grainger: 34:32

The message is like like literally most of the writing now. It's like, all right, here's how I have screwed up, here's how much it hurt and here's what I've learned from it. And if it's helpful to you, like, roll with it, bro, and if it's not, hey, check somebody else out. But I mean, I don't know. Just that change. And when you said messaging, that authenticity comes to mind for me. I don't know if that's what you're seeing or not.

Dave Jones: 34:53

Yeah, so the hierarchy which I think you're referring to is the hierarchical messaging, like I am telling you what you need to do, right, like that doesn't work. It doesn't work anymore. So Donald Miller, many years ago, came out with StoryBrand and one of the great things he said was the organization is no longer the hero, the client, the donor, the first time guest. They are the hero, you are their guide. And so this you know how long I've been doing this nobody cares, right, nobody cares. You know how much you know it's. It's more about what are you struggling with, chris, and how can you and I do it together?

Dave Jones: 35:37

So I've been using this analogy lately, cause I like to play golf and you know it's a difference of when you walk into the golf, the country club, and the doors swing open, there's somebody there waiting to greet you and says hey, chris, we built this for everyone. Come on in, there's a seat down there somewhere. Or scenario B is hey, chris, we built this place for you. It's so good that you came back, man, we're excited to have you and your family here. You have your normal seat and there's a waiter waiting for you with, you know, your favorite drink. That's the difference.

Chris Grainger: 36:19

Yeah, that's incredible. That's incredible. So I mean, how do you think kind of take full circle back to your church? I mean, how do you think kind of take full circle back to your church, how could they make some small shifts to adapt that type of model or messaging, rather, yeah.

Dave Jones: 36:34

So I would say we haven't talked about this. Let me set it up for a second. I would say lose the ORPs, the obligatory religious phraseology. When I bring this up in the church, you know, like meetings, like the ORPs, they go, oh my gosh. Yes, you know, transforming ministries of the spirit of excellence. Nobody knows what you're talking about. Man, it's really cool messaging that. Everybody says that it's like, yeah, we don't know what we're doing, you know. So you got to lose that. And it's really in the Christian community. It's's really really hard to do because we like our christianism, christianism, we love speaking that stuff. Man, oh yeah, man, oh yeah. So you know. You kind of got a bullet down to what exactly it is that we're struggling with. I'll just, for example I'll just one that's really easy is stress. Everybody's dealing with stress and being overwhelmed. So you know, are you stressed and overwhelmed.

Chris Grainger: 37:38

Come join us in community today.

Dave Jones: 37:42

You know, it's very warm, it's very inviting, very relatable. Yeah, we're a church built on the word of God. We have a great worship, we have children's ministries. You know, god, we have a great worship, we have children's ministries. You know, this is what I call messaging that is commoditized. Everybody's saying it.

Chris Grainger: 37:57

Tell me what's different about your church Go ahead. I said but it's easy for the pastor. He doesn't offend anybody, he doesn't have to worry about stepping on any toes, and that's where I get fired up. But yeah, keep going.

Dave Jones: 38:10

Group therapy, it's easy. The church, so you know it's just got to lose the. I lost my train of thought there, sorry. When we're talking about obligatory religious phraseology, bringing it down to what somebody is struggling with, nobody's resonating with. You know, we have a pastor. What kind of church? Yeah, oh my gosh, my praise and worship team is amazing. Right, nobody cares, right.

Chris Grainger: 38:44

Right, I mean the pastor that I connect most with.

Chris Grainger: 38:48

I mean he's out of Florida, pastor Joby Martin, and I think the reason it's working is because his sermons are like that Down to the life application, to what you're seeing, to what you're feeling.

Chris Grainger: 39:02

I mean, I've been on so many runs, I listen to him when I'm running every day, and it's just. I've had so many moments of like him when I'm running every day. Okay, and, and it's just, it's just. I've had so many moments of like, yep, that's me like I mean he talks about anger and just getting spewing out and it's just good, I mean so. But like he doesn't say like that's you, he's. He's saying like this is, this, is what I've experienced myself. And like when you hear that as a, as a, as someone listening to obviously this man's following what God's calling him to do, like he's built so much trust in me, you know, just because of his authenticity and his willingness to be vulnerable, and I think, man, we just don't see that it's very rare. I've never seen it in my local church, ever from the pulpit, Like it just doesn't exist, man.

Dave Jones: 39:48

It's tough. It's tough to find that. It's awesome, that you found that. It's great. Um, yeah, so the messaging. Messaging to me is everything. Yeah, and how do we turn the lens to help people become the best version of themselves? To be, you know, fulfilling their God-given purpose. And how do we become a VIP to that process? Like that fires me up from an organizational level down to a personal level.

Chris Grainger: 40:19

Speak to the guy out there. You know who's. Maybe he's not the owner of the business. He's just. He's just working. He's just there doing, doing what God's calling him to do there. How can he bring his personal faith and let that be a bigger part of his career? What advice would you give that guy?

Dave Jones: 40:42

I think it'd be the same advice I'd give somebody who's a business owner. Honestly, okay, to me it's not about how you're creating income, it's how you're glorifying the Lord with your talents and your abilities. That's it. That's it right. How I create money doing that is. To me it's a byproduct.

Dave Jones: 41:03

The question that I have is that the world tells us to go to school, get good grades, get a job, learn a skill Right, and so I think Gallup came out with a poll several years ago that 88% of the US workforce is disengaged at work. So we're doing things that we don't want to do. We've gone to school for things that we're probably not. You know we're not making money from, we're not passionate about, but you get caught in this web of. You know I went to school and I, you know, make an X amount of money. I don't like what I'm doing, but I got a family to support, and so to make that shift is really hard to say.

Dave Jones: 41:49

You know what I don't want to do? Marketing. I want to be in the automotive industry, but I have no experience there, but I'm really passionate about it. That takes faith. It takes faith to break out of that, you know, and doing something that you feel fulfilled in Cause in God's economy. I kind of think about it. I mean, I really don't know God's economy, honestly, but I think about it of you know, I'm put on this planet for a purpose to glorify him and I want to feel fulfilled through that. And through that fulfillment, if I stay in that industry long enough and I'm really in what I feel fulfilled about, I will become an expert in and the money will just follow.

Chris Grainger: 42:26

Right, that's right, it's just that freedom 100, 100.

Dave Jones: 42:32

Yeah, and that's tough man. That's easy for me to say, but that's tough to really scale back and go. Man, I don't like what I do and I need to change that's tough, right?

Chris Grainger: 42:44

yeah, because of your point. Like I mean, when you made that shift I don't know what you were making at your fox job, but that's tough psychology to do. Moving forward.

Dave Jones: 43:05

I didn't know at the time. I mean, my wife was, you know, she was a perfusionist, she was running the heart and lung machine during open heart surgery, so she was making okay money, so we really didn't need my income. I mean, I look back on that and think what a blessing that was, because I can figure out my stuff for three years while she's supporting me, you know. And so really I mean it's easier as a you know dink dual income. And so really I mean it's easier as a you know dink dual income, no kids, but like as like even harder if you've got three kids, yeah, you know, and so that's, that's, that's some faith man, right, and I will say this, though like I do believe that God is sovereign and that God, if God has a vision in your heart that you're not fulfilling, you know he is putting the resources around you to fulfill that vision.

Dave Jones: 43:50

You're just numb to those resources. You're not seeing them around you. That's where you have to peel that back and start. You know, looking at yourself and your relationship with God. I say that that I do that. You know I'd always look at my relationship with God. You know I'm not saying it from like know you're doing something bad. We all have to look at our relationship with god that's right and and figure out if we're doing his will well, david, I've definitely I've learned a lot from you in this.

Chris Grainger: 44:21

Before we wrap up, though, let's, let's have some fun. Just do a little quick lightning round at the end, since, yeah, you're, you're a hockey guy, you're still going fast, fast anyway, so this should be pretty easy for you. Let's do it. What's the hobby, man? You've already mentioned golf, so we're going to take that off the table. What's another hobby that you enjoy doing for fun, man?

Dave Jones: 44:41

I read psychology books. I know it doesn't sound fun but I read.

Chris Grainger: 44:44

But that's fun to you, yeah.

Dave Jones: 44:48

Wow Okay, I love human behavior. I love to get my hands on it.

Chris Grainger: 44:52

Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty cool, though, man. That's awesome, yeah. So what about favorite food? You mentioned you're from Pennsylvania originally, is that what you said? But now you're back in North Carolina, so what's your go-to?

Dave Jones: 45:07

My go-to probably steak and a sweet potato.

Chris Grainger: 45:11

And sweet potato my man, yeah, that's it. North Carolina man. This is where most of the sweet potatoes come from. That's it that barbecue I love. I can barbecue, man I got a smoker out back, oh yeah.

Dave Jones: 45:23

I love my barbecue as well.

Chris Grainger: 45:24

Well, since your name is super Dave, like I gotta, I gotta find out. Like so, if you, if you could have a superpower, which one would it be and how would you use it?

Dave Jones: 45:32

Oh my gosh, what a great question there is this. I mean, I talked about this a couple of years ago. Um, the superpower that I would want would be, um, uh, the avoidance of accidents avoidance of accidents like on the road or just in general anywhere I couldn't get in trouble okay, okay, gotcha that would be a pretty useful yeah. So riding a bike, getting in a crash, jumping off a building, um uh, boating getting on a ladder, like the avoidance of trouble, I would have an innate ability to say don't do that.

Chris Grainger: 46:27

That's it, man. That's it. What's your favorite go-to movie? Pursuit of Happiness. Oh, that's a good one, nice. Nice and 300.'s a good one, nice, nice.

Dave Jones: 46:41

What's 300? I like 300 to 300. Oh my man 300.

Chris Grainger: 46:45

Gotta love that one. Gotta love that one. What's something you're struggling with right now?

Dave Jones: 46:51

Um, I talk about this a lot actually, so I have this acronym that I came up with. It's called flap, flapap, flap, f-l-a-p. So fear, lust, anger, pride, and so I struggle with two of those probably every day, and for me it was never. It's never been sexual lust, it's been possessions. You know like lusting possessions, and I've really really tried to work hard on that. So you know a house, a car, a boat, even down to like last night, like I was just looking at something to clean my car. You know like a foam bottle. You know like the spray foam where you put all the foam on. It's supposed to be like I'm like I need a new bottle of that. I'm like, don't, I don't need that stupid thing. You know, there, you go there you go.

Dave Jones: 47:54

So I struggle with that and I recognize that that it could get me in trouble and it hasn't, but I struggle there.

Chris Grainger: 48:02

Appreciate your honesty with that man when you think about God. What's your favorite thing about it?

Dave Jones: 48:11

The honest, I really, I really like I love going to the lake and I love just seeing the mountains in the water and I just I probably in my mind, have ventured into about 10% of the awesomeness of God and I want more of it. I want to see more of it. Amen, yeah.

Chris Grainger: 48:34

What about a slip at 180? What's your least favorite thing about? The evil one About.

Dave Jones: 48:40

Satan. You're breaking up there about thing about the evil one about Satan. You're breaking up there about what? The evil one about Satan? Yeah, my least favorite or most favorite, Least favorite.

Chris Grainger: 48:50

Least favorite about Satan.

Dave Jones: 48:55

Basically, what do you hate the most about him? You know, I just don't think there's a whole lot of creativity there. Like he tries to come out as the same old stuff and I'm like, like can you get creative? Like you're not going to get me to that and I don't want that. I don't want him to get creative. But I'm just saying like it's the same stuff over and over. It's the flap, the fear, lust, anger, pride, right, this is my pride. I recognize it. I'm sorry, lord, I need to get rid of it. I need to. You know, humble myself, it's the same stuff.

Chris Grainger: 49:34

Amen. Well, Dave, what do you hope the guys listening remember the most from our conversation today?

Dave Jones: 49:40

What do you hope the guys listening remember the most from our conversation today? I hope to just know that you know whatever you're chasing out there, that it's worth chasing If you feel like you're in God's will and you're chasing God and trying to glorify him. Stay strong man. Stay in the process. We need more of you. There's going to be less and less, and there are less and less of glorify him. Stay, stay, strong man. Stay in the process. We need more of you. There's going to be less and less and there are less and less of us out there. I want to encourage you to to step out on faith. You know, hopefully they see that in my story, that you know it was a faith journey and and that, um, you know I'm constantly working on myself and just want to encourage them to do the same.

Chris Grainger: 50:18

Amen, bro, amen. Where do you want to send the listeners to connect with you, all the wonderful things you're doing, that you're building to serve others?

Dave Jones: 50:27

I think just go to emmasgoodcom. There's lots of great resources on there. We're a Christian agency, but I've done a reasonably good job of building up my blogs and some R7 podcasts over the years.

Chris Grainger: 50:42

Nice, all right, we'll make sure that links in the show notes for you guys. So, dave, anything else you'd like to share today?

Dave Jones: 50:48

I just really appreciate you, chris, and thank you for being patient with me, and I really enjoyed talking to you, and so thank you for having me align with you Absolutely.

Chris Grainger: 50:57

It's been an honor. You have a great day, all right, thanks. All right, guys. I told you it was going to be a fun one. So thank you for Dave for coming on.

Chris Grainger: 51:10

Question of the week this week, fellas, is what area of life feels most directionless for you right now? We all have that area. Very rarely are all eight cylinders firing correctly, right. Something's usually off. So just recognize what that is and then put some time and some thought into course correction, okay. So really enjoy that conversation with Dave. That flap acronym fear, lust, anger, pride I'm definitely going to remember that one. Maybe you will as well Remember that's the lies of the evil one. That's the way he trips us up is hitting us focused in one of those areas. Okay, so if you enjoyed this, share this out with others, give us a rating and review Highly encourage you to head over to thelionwithinus.

Chris Grainger: 51:53

That's thelionwithinus. Check lionwithinus, check out all our resources, follow us on the Bible app, follow us on YouTube, wherever you want to connect with us at. But my encouragement to you is to start your daily spiritual kickoff or join the community right there. One of those two. Take one of those two steps out the gate. Okay, if you're interested in our leadership mastermind, take this time to do the assessment. I'm not going to promise you that there's a spot for you, but I will promise you. We'll have a conversation and we'll see if this is a good fit for you.

Chris Grainger: 52:21

All this can be found at the lion within dot us. You can do slash mastermind if you want to go directly to that mastermind page, ok, you want to support the show? Just go to the lion within that US slash donate. You can help us out there. Every penny definitely makes a big impact. And other than that, just share this out with others. That's all we ask, fellas. Share this out with other people. Bring it up in your manage groups. Let's have conversations. We'd love to hear from you. All right, guys, have a great day.

Chris Grainger: 52:47

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