Chris Grainger: 1:11

Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders God intends you to be. I'm your host, chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, guys, meat episode time. Let's get into it, okay. So the scripture of the week is James 1, chapter 27, verse okay 2-7. It says religion that God, our Father, accepts as pure and thoughtless is this to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. So, guys, go back and listen to the spiritual kickoff episode. We took some time to unpack that at length. Okay. Again, if you enjoy the spiritual kickoff episode each week, monday through Friday, we do it within the line within us and it's completely free. So go to the line within us within dot U S. Get started today, okay. So this episode is going to be another great one.

Chris Grainger: 2:05

Fellas, looking forward to letting you hear this conversation with Roland Warren. So he's the president and the CEO of Care Net and that's one of the largest in the nation actually networks of evangelical pregnancy centers. Okay, so he came from. He went to Princeton University, wharton School of Business obviously extremely brilliant, brilliant man. He spent over two decades in the corporate sector, worked with tons of major companies, but he's transitioned and now he's writing these books. He's serving in this area and really focusing on the pro-life actually let me correct myself the pro-abundant life movement and that's what I enjoyed so much about this Married kids, grandkids, great guy out of Maryland, I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation with Roland Ward. Welcome to the Lion Within Us. How are you doing today, sir?

Roland Warren: 3:07

I'm well, I'm well. Thanks for having me on the show.

Chris Grainger: 3:11

I appreciate it. You must be an early riser like me, because most guests don't want to record at 8.30 in the morning. So are you an early? Are you a go-getter?

Roland Warren: 3:19

Yeah, I'm up by five, so this is almost. It's almost lunchtime for me already.

Chris Grainger: 3:23

That's right, that's right. Half the day's gone by right, that's right, that's right. Well, before we dive in because this is going to be a really fun one for sure, maybe share something fun about you, roland, that not many people know about. I always just like to start in a light way.

Roland Warren: 3:38

Geez, I don't know if there's that much that's fun about me, I want to. I mean, maybe oddities for some folks is that I do have this thing for squirrels. So if you come to my office it's kind of like a kind of of a nut house a little bit, with all the different pictures of squirrels and various ways, and people give me different cartoons and various other things. I've been putting those around for a number of years, so so I don't know if people would know that or not, but I imagine most people probably don't.

Chris Grainger: 4:08

So is the squirrel thing from like, from your childhood, like. When did you start liking squirrels?

Roland Warren: 4:14

I used to be in sales and I remember one of the managers once said that even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes. In other words, that was just kind of a way to get the sales folks out of the office and into the streets. Ain't nobody in here buying stuff, so you need to be out there. So my wife bought me, uh, she found this, this stuffed squirrel, and uh, she gave it to me and I, I put a you know tape across the eyes as my reminder not be at my desk but to be to be out, and so that kind of started it and then, and then the collection uh, went from there. So I'm not kind of one of these crazy people that wears like squirrel underwear and stuff like that. Right, right, nothing on the personal body, no squirrel watch or anything like that. But the external stuff is fine.

Chris Grainger: 5:00

Well, I may be able to change you though. So now you're in Maryland, so you're not too far. So you just got to come down to Richmond because their baseball team is the Flying Squirrels. You'd be in love right there there. Their baseball team is a flying squirrels.

Roland Warren: 5:10

You'd fall, You'd be in love right there. You know, there you go, there you go. You have to get me a shirt or something, that's right. That's right, kind of fun.

Chris Grainger: 5:17

There you go, there you go. Well, I'm excited to talk with you, roland for sure. Thank you so much for the copy of your book the Alternate to Abortion. While we must be pro abundant, I really just love that Anything abundant life. John 10, 10, I'm all in. So when I saw it I'm like, yeah, we have to have him. But your story started with really a personal testimony in the book. So maybe just get our readers up to speed a little bit about your background and what led you to going down this path and tackling this topic that is so, so, vitally important for Christians.

Roland Warren: 5:51

Yeah, no, it really does. It kind of goes back to when I was a junior in college, I was undergraduate at Princeton and I got my girlfriend, who was a sophomore, pregnant Now I guess to tell people all the time kind of start off with the punchline my wife of 43 years. But we got pregnant. We were facing unplanned pregnancy. We're Christians on campus doing stuff that Christians shouldn't be doing, obviously, and we felt the consequences of it and the result of that sin. So, you know, she went to Student Health Services to get a pregnancy test and the nurse delivers the test, gives her the news, says you know you're, you're pregnant and, without taking an extra gulp of air, really just says now, of course you're going to have an abortion. And you know, my wife says no, I don't want to have an abortion, I want to get married, I want to have my baby. And the nurse is like how are you going to graduate from Princeton with a baby? Doesn't seem like it makes a lot of sense, doesn't seem like it's what she wants to do. And she says I want to become a doctor. The nurse is like gosh, how are you going to become a doctor with a baby? Graduate with a baby Doesn't seem like a wise choice. And you know, I kind of think she probably came back to the dorm room and kind of gave me the news on that and you know, I kind of said to her what you know, what we had agreed upon. Agreed upon, we're just going to move forward with the plan. And we did. And we got married and had our first son at Princeton, and actually he was born right before, not too long before I graduated, and so I have this great picture of me carrying him with my graduation hat and stuff like that. And she went on to graduate from Princeton not with one baby but with two. You know it's Ivy League, so you've got to overachieve. So why try to graduate with one baby? You can do it with two. So anyway, so we did that. So she carried our younger son, justin, in the graduation that picture is actually in the book, yes and went on to become a doctor. It's been practicing medicine close to 30 years now.

Roland Warren: 7:53

So you know, as I saw firsthand, you know that you know being faced with that decision. I understand the temptation that it is to kind of put the baby away if you will, and you know when you feel like your hopes and your dreams and your aspirations are at risk and how there's the temptation to do that thing and we didn't. And so we've seen that. And you know the son that we were supposed to abort. You know me, you know this great guy and went to Harvard. He's a smart, smart kid, and you know.

Roland Warren: 8:21

So we really saw firsthand that you know how God works, you know through these situations, and so part of my passion around this is really to help folks, you know, see that perspective. There's this great picture of my wife holding our granddaughter, who was the daughter of the son we were supposed to abort, and I love that picture because you know the notion behind abortion is that nothing good will come to this from this. You know nothing good will come. So you know she's sitting there as a 19 year old and the nurse is saying nothing good will come from this. This is not, you know, not 50-50. This is like a net negative for your life.

Roland Warren: 8:58

And you know I see my wife holding our granddaughter and the look on her face and all of that. And the thing was, you know, when my wife was 19, she couldn't see that picture, she didn't see that future. She didn't see that, but God did, and that's why it's important to trust God. You know, children are a gift from the Lord and they're a gift that he gives us and he wants us to nurture and bless and raise up in the fear and admonition of Him. And so you know, we see that, and we saw the results of that and that's, you know, a lot of ways, that's the abundance that comes from when we sin, that God, you know, that, can take those things that we do and use them, you know, for our good and for his glory, and I certainly see that in terms of what happened with our story.

Chris Grainger: 9:38

I'm curious of the nurse Was this a you know? Was this a Planned Parenthood facility, or? Or I mean no, just student health services.

Roland Warren: 9:46

You know where the students go to get any kind of medical stuff. No, just student health services. You know where the students go to get any kind of medical stuff? Yeah, so she, you know. I mean she could have said you know who's the father, where's the father? Maybe we can come to the next visit to support you know, your choice or his child. I mean, she could have done all of that or how can we help you, support you in your choice.

Roland Warren: 10:07

And she was, you know, an older woman obviously than my, than my wife, and possibly a mother herself. She could have leaned into that perspective, but she, she didn't, you know, she leaned to a perspective that really didn't give her much choice. She essentially kind of said to her well, you really don't have a choice here and the only right choice is, you know, is abortion. And I think for so many women in that vulnerable moment, when the people who could support them or encourage them, you know, to make a life decision, when they have someone who says that to them, it can be very influential and especially if they're not anchored in you know, a perspective, you know the child is a blessing and that God has a hope, has a future for you, you know, a hope in the future not to harm you, hoping the future not to harm you, you know, and they don't lean into that, then it can be very easy for you to. You know, sacrifice the vulnerable for your own you know success or for your own future as as you see it in that moment.

Chris Grainger: 10:58

Yeah Well, I'm curious because you know I'm thinking young cop, young college kids getting pregnant. You know, obviously, your Christian convictions. You knew what you were going to do. What about your families? How was the response there? Were they as supportive? Because that can be challenging as well.

Roland Warren: 11:17

Yeah, yeah, I think you know both were supportive in the sense of, you know, neither side pressured us to have an abortion, you know, and so that was really good in terms of that. And you know they hadn't really wanted us to get married before then, but you know they were, you know they were fine with us getting married after this happened and we kind of started our life together that way. But you know, for so many people, if you don't, if you have family members that are discouraging you from doing it, then obviously that has an enormous impact. I mean, one of the insights that I feel like I've had as I've gotten older is just the power of people who are close to you and the way that that voice that they speak in that moment can really lead you down a path of sin. I mean, it goes all the way back to the garden, right? So if you think about Adam in the garden, so the question I have thought about is did Satan approach Adam to sin before Eve? Did he, you know? And if he did, obviously he wasn't successful, right? And then he either waited for Eve or he was successful when Eve was there.

Roland Warren: 12:24

And I think the principle there is that intimate relationships, close relationships, can often drive us to move away from God's principles and God's standards. You know, and so you see that on issues like whether it's you know, whether it's you know same-sex issue, or whether it's you know, the trans issue or abortion or whatever, you don't really find folks saying you know, I was going through scripture and I found in scripture support for many of these perspectives. It always is. Well, you know, I have a family member who is living that lifestyle or has that perspective, and I love that family member and so I've chose the path of kind of going with that family member rather than the path of going with God's word. So he really does use, you know, sort of intimate relationships to draw us away from him and abortion is also, you know, sort of one of those things that ends up in that same perspective 100%, 100%.

Chris Grainger: 13:22

And I love in your book you know you kind of you hear pro-life all the time, and of course I do, and we hear the stances behind that, but pro-abund, abundant life, that, that, that hits and that hits good. I want to say, when I got the book I'm like, oh, I like this because I mean John 1010, we had that in our barn, at our farm. I'm a 1010 guy. You know my favorite, my favorite pastors, he had a two year. He called it a 1010 journey. He he's out of Florida and it was great. So I'm just curious, when you were starting and working through this and praying through this, like, how did you come up with that, the pro abundant life?

Roland Warren: 14:02

Well, you know it's interesting, it really was. You know something that God kind of brought to my heart based on a number of different things that were going on in my life. And just a little interesting fun fact you know, roe v Wade was overturned at 1010 am. So oh, I can't make it up Just to put a fine point on it Right, that I just thought that's pretty amazing that it was overturned at 1010. It could have been overturned at many different times, but you know.

Roland Warren: 14:31

So I really kind of thought about that in the context of, you know, this notion of abundant life. God's sort of putting a fine point on this notion of not just being for life but for abundant life. And, as you said, you know it comes from. You know that passage where Jesus, you know, basically says his why statement, why he came. You know, this is why he came, that we might have life and then have that life abundantly. And he's talking about two types of life. He's talking about physical life, where the Greek word bios, b-i-o-s the same kind of narrative that gives us the word biology, like physical life. But he's also talking about Zoe, which is a unique type of spiritual life that only comes from a relationship with God. So the way I've kind of thought about it is that he's basically saying, in that moment I came to link your bias to my Zoe that you might be heartbeats that are heaven bound.

Roland Warren: 15:19

And so when I started to kind of think about the life issue through that lens as a Christian, I said, well, you know, jesus isn't saying that he's pro-life, he's saying he's pro-abundant life, because that's what he's saying. He's like you might have life abundantly. So I'm pro-abundant life, not just pro-life. In other words, he's solving for Bias and Zoe. And that's what you see, you know, in the interactions that Christ had with folks. He would meet them at their point of bias, gave her physical healing right, but he stopped. Why did he stop? Didn't have to. She got her bias, she was healed, she wouldn't bleed no more. Why'd he stop? Because he wanted to restore her fully, in other words, to link her bias to his zoe right, to restore her physically, emotionally, spiritually and socially. The fullness of restoration socially, the fullness of restoration, that's the fullness of life and that's abundant life in that context.

Roland Warren: 16:17

So what I realized was I said, well, wait a minute, if Jesus wasn't just pro-life, he was pro-abundant life, then if I'm a follower of Christ, then my why statement for how I engage in this issue should be linked to his why statement, and his why statement was abundant life. And the other thing which is kind of clear you can be an atheist and be pro-life because you're solving for Bias Not a bad thing, it's a great thing but you can't be an atheist and be pro-abundant life because you're not solving for heartbeats that are heaven bound. So my view was well then, as we start to think about Care Net as a ministry, we're not a pro-life organization, we're a pro-abundant life organization. And then we started working down. So how do we bring heaven to earth, so to speak? In terms of that, how do we get that abundant life on earth? What are the institutions that God gives us in order for abundant life to happen in humanity?

Chris Grainger: 17:14

And that's what leads to the pro-abundant life perspective which I lay out in the book Right, love it, love it. Guys, we're going to take our first break. We'll come back and keep digging in. I've got something big to share. We're making a major shift because we know the battle was real and it's time more men had access to the support they need.

Chris Grainger: 17:31

For too long, guys have been trying to carry the weight alone pressure at work, tension at home, wounds from the past in a world that demands strength but offers no place to rest. We see it, we've lived it, and that's exactly why we built our community. It's a stronghold, a place where warriors can find rest, truth and a band of brothers standing beside them. And starting now, we're making it easier than ever to step in. We've lowered the barrier to just $15.99 a month. That means, for less than the cost of a drive-thru lunch, you can join a brotherhood that's centered on Christ and built for growth. Inside you'll find access to our daily spiritual kickoffs every Monday through Friday our Lion Lunches, our Bible Studies, our Friday Forge Gatherings all that and so much more. Every man needs a stronghold and you don't have to fight alone If you've been waiting for the right time to jump in this is it?

Chris Grainger: 18:21

Go to thelionwithinus and join the community and see for yourself what happens when iron truly sharpens iron. See, I love to, as you mentioned, the bios and the Zoe. So you have the great commandment, the great commission. You have some wonderful visualizations in the book, by the way, I think whoever did the illustrations, they're incredible. They really help because you have the discipleship component around the family component, and maybe just break down how you came up with that model, how God revealed it to you and what does that practically look like for the believer out there who wants to take their pro-life position and actually take it to the next level. That's really what I see here.

Roland Warren: 19:07

Yeah, yeah, I mean the first. So one of the graphics I have in there, because I was thinking about a graphic to illustrate this, and I have this graphic that's sort of a house with, you know, with a roof and two pillars that hold up the roof right, and so the roof is Pro Abundant Life John 10.10. So how do you support that perspective? And there are two pillars that hold up that perspective. The first pillar is God's design for family, as that first pillar, and you know, really God sort of led me to see the birth of Christ, you know, in the lens of the life issue, because, you know, mary was facing an unplanned pregnancy from a human perspective, she had hopes for her life, dreams for her life that didn't include a child at that time and in that way. And so, you know, when I think about that, I think about my wife, the way that my wife got pregnant, obviously very different from Mary, but the practical consequences after she got pregnant were very similar. Mary's like, I'm sure, what? How am I going to tell my father and my mother and my community? How am I going to take care of this child? What's Joseph going to say? I mean all this uncertainty swirling around in her head and you know what does she do in that moment. She doesn't focus on the uncertainty of what she doesn't know, she focuses on the certainty of what she does, that there's a life growing inside of her, and it's not a life worth sacrificing, but a life worth sacrificing for. And she says what? Let it be on to me, as you have said. So, when I think about the ministry work that CareDead's involved in in our network of 1,200 plus pregnancy centers, and the work we do with our national hotline for women and men facing pregnancy decisions, and the work that we do to connect those folks to churches for ongoing support and discipleship. Essentially, what we're trying to do is encourage them to tap into their inner Mary, to ascribe to themselves the virtue and the character of Mary, right? So you sit knee to knee with somebody and that's what you're praying for and that's what you're trying to call out of them.

Roland Warren: 20:56

That notion, like her, don't focus on the uncertainty of what you don't know, right, focus on the certainty of what you do, that this is a life not worth sacrificing, but a life worth sacrificing for, and say let it be unto you, as you have said. So that story in the first chapter, the first book of the New Testament of the birth of Christ, is really illustrative of really in my view, from a Christian perspective, how we should be engaging on a life issue, because it's the best example of how God responded to an unplanned pregnancy from a human perspective. What did he do? Well, he went to Mary and called her in that role, but he didn't stop there. Like folks say, okay, I got it. Got it, Ronald, we're supposed to help the proverbial Marys and save the proverbial Jesus. It's great, let me close my Bible, let's get at it.

Roland Warren: 21:40

But what did God do to make sure that Mary's unplanned pregnancy wasn't a crisis pregnancy? Send an angel to Joseph and Joseph had a plan he was going to put her away quietly. He was going to divorce her quietly right, because that's how you essentially did abortions back then, because you couldn't put the baby away. So you put the woman and the baby away, and the angel comes to Joseph and says listen, I know that's your plan, but I got a new plan. And what does he call Joseph to do? First thing, he tells him do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. In other words, he calls him to be a husband to her and a father to the child growing inside of her.

Roland Warren: 22:10

And so when I looked at that nativity narrative, as I call it, through the lens of looked at the life issue through the lens rather of the nativity narrative, I realized that there's a big miss in terms of how we've been approaching the life issue for 50 years. Yeah, we've been trying to help the Pravarial Marys and save the Pravarial Jesuses, but we have not been trying to engage the perennial Joseph's. We have not had that framework. We've framed the issue as about a woman and a baby, which is a counter to the pro-choice side, which is about a woman and a question mark. And so we actually created sort of this yin-yang kind of thing, where they're for the women, we're for the women, we're both for the women and we're arguing over the baby's a question mark or not.

Roland Warren: 22:50

And I need to reject that entire paradigm because what you see in the first chapter, the first book of the New Testament, is that God created a family. So it's not just about the sanctity of life, it's about the sanctity of marriage and family as God designed, right. And so that's what you see. So it seems to me that if you're a pro abundant life right that you would focus on not just saving the baby and helping the woman, but reaching the man and, to the best of your ability, trying to help them build a marriage, a family. And I look at my own life. Well, you know that's exactly what happened. I mean, you know our first pregnancy was unplanned. You know our second pregnancy she tricked me no, I'm just kidding. But our second pregnancy we never faced another unplanned pregnancy. Why we created a family, we lived out that perspective.

Roland Warren: 23:39

And what happens when a woman has a guy who says I'll be a husband to you and a father to the child growing inside of you, guess what she's more likely to give the child? What Life Bias 87% of the women that have abortions are unmarried. Life bias 87% of the women that have abortions are unmarried. So if you delink the marriage issue, the sanctity of marriage and family issue, from the sanctity of life, you end up getting neither, and that's what we have ended up doing. And so that first pillar that holds up a pro abundant life perspective is God's design for family and really your goal should be, you know, trying to do that.

Roland Warren: 24:10

And I'll just make one one more, just final, kind of put a finer point on that. If you talk to the typical, you know, pro-life, christian and you and if I said, you listen a woman comes to you and she's pregnant and you've got this ability to, to, to change everything in anything in her life except the fact that she's pregnant. You can change anything except the fact that she's pregnant. You can change anything except the fact that she's pregnant. What would you want to have happen? So I want her to have a baby. Great, that's it. You want to be a single mom? No, no, I want the father to be involved. Okay, what do you want? Be a baby daddy, bring pampers every now and then. I mean, what do you want? No-transcript work for the higher thing, don't settle for the lower thing.

Roland Warren: 25:21

So a pro-abundant life perspective is that higher thing. It's not just about saving babies, as God honoring as that is. It's not just about raising children, as God honoring as that is. It's not just about raising children, as God honoring as that is. It's not just about helping women, as God honoring as that is. It's about building a family, a father and mother uniting in marriage, loving each other, loving their child, to be disciples who make disciples, who live and love like Jesus, you don't get that from a pro-life perspective. You get that from a pro-abundant life perspective, because you can't be a pro abundant life with actually trying to focus on building a family consistent with God's design for family.

Chris Grainger: 25:57

What I love about it is you touch on the component, like you said, that's missing from all the so, so much the pro life narrative, the father. It's just a very simple piece and that's that's a pivotal role in and the pro-abundant life that you're, that you're talking about here, because I and I get so many. You know it's funny when you talk I'm sure you hear people talk about, you know, surprise pregnancy. Well, I'm gonna tell you what there may be surprise parents, but there are zero surprise babies. I mean, just, it don't work that way. I mean I just feel like you know, god has a design, he has a plan and it's going to come out.

Chris Grainger: 26:31

So I just I applaud you for leaning into that, the family component of it, and bringing in the men, because we have to be fostering men, because there's not much out there, roland, I don't know from your standpoint so far as equipping and encouraging and helping men. You know, lean into what we've been called to do. That's really what I try to do with the lion, and there are other organizations too, but the church, I feel like as well. We have to be talking about this more more openly, about our given duty to provide, protect, preside over our families and be that that the leader of our spiritual leader of our homes.

Roland Warren: 27:05

Well, it is, and it's so important and really it's been the enemy's plan, you know, to get get every man to kind of make like Adam, you know, because, look, look, the first abortion actually happened in the Garden of Eden.

Roland Warren: 27:18

The abortion is a physical act that is a reflection of a reality that you have in terms of your relationship with God. It's essentially saying I know what's better for my life than God does. That's basically what an abortion is. It's the same thing. So she says what, my fruit, my choice, my fruit, my choice. And then Adam says, well, her body, her choice, right. And then he partakes Well, the abortionist is exactly the same and the evil one, just like in the garden, wants the man to just stand there and not engage. And when that happens, guess what you get? What you get. Look, when we looked at the data on, you know, influence around abortion, we did a study some time ago and we a national survey with Lifeway and we surveyed men who had participated in abortion and we asked them you know sort of kind of, you know what role did you play, if you will? We asked you know who did she talk? You know what role did you play, if you will. We asked you who did she talk to? And we gave them a list of different people and number one was the guy. Then we asked him who do you think was the most influential in her decision to abort? And the guy says I was Did the same survey with women. And we said who did you talk to? She says number one was the guy. And then we asked her who was the most influential in your decision to abort? Guess what? It was the guy. So abortion the guy's involved and he's the most influential.

Roland Warren: 28:42

And what we've been doing in a lot of ways is we've been treating guys in the pro-life movement the same way that the pro-choice people do. The pro-choice people want her body, her choice, in other words, to isolate her, separate her away from the guy and when that happens she's more likely to have the abortion right. And we're doing sort of the same thing before a different reason. There's sort of this perspective well, the guy's just going to try to help her have an abortion, so we need to protect her from him. But the reality is that he's also the key to her making the life decision. That's why 87 percent of the women that have abortions are unmarried, and particularly in the context of the sanctity of marriage and family.

Roland Warren: 29:30

So, really, that's the reason why, you know, when I think about this, it's like why you know this, calling this pro-abundant life as opposed to pro-life is so important. You know, in a lot of ways, because it's a different thing. It's a different thing and the other thing, reason why you know, frankly, just from a practical reality of it, you know, I ask people all the time, you know, they say they pro-life. I say, well, what do you mean by that? Because the term has actually lost, it's actually lost its concrete meaning. And here's what I mean by that.

Roland Warren: 30:02

I say, okay, you're pro-life. Yes, and why? Okay, because I believe in a model day, right. I believe that the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should not determine its humanity and worth, right? So whether you're conceived in love or lust, or planned or unplanned, or you have a fetal abnormality, it doesn't matter. Your humanity is intact because it's intrinsically tied to God. You're one of God's image bearers and worthy of protection, got it? What about you? Well, I'm pro-life too. Okay, but I'm for a 15 week ban, okay. Well, how many abortions happened before 15 weeks? 96%, according to CDC. Okay, so you're okay with 96% of abortions and you're pro-life, yes, okay. What about you? Well, I'm pro-life too. I'm for a 20 week ban because we're talking about pain capable or late-term abortions or whatever. I'm against late-term abortions, but early-term I'm fine. Okay, how many abortions happen before 20 weeks? 99%, ah, see, so you're okay with 99% of abortions? Yes, but I'm pro-life. You look at the pro-life plank of the Republican platform. The only abortions that it's against are late term abortions, which are abortions after 20 weeks, which is about 1 percent of abortions.

Roland Warren: 31:14

So what I mean? We've taken a term that's kind of supposed to be an absolute Right and now it's on a spectrum, it's flexible, it's really meaningless in many ways because it doesn't have a very specific meaning. In many ways, because it doesn't have a very specific meaning, we've allowed it to be contaminated because we pulled away from the conviction of what it actually means. I think you should define what it means to be quote pro-life from the perspective of the baby in the womb. So if you're the baby in the womb, we say, okay, now here's these multiple perspectives here. Which one are you for? Well, this one over here. Can I end up dead? Yeah, sure, a lot of times, maybe even the majority of the time.

Roland Warren: 31:57

Well, what about this pro-abundant life thing you've been talking about? Yeah, no, that's based on Imago Dei, that the circumstances of your conception and birth do not change your humanity and worth. So, no matter how, yep, I'd rather have those guys leading, not that. And all that has to do with the fact that we gave the issue to the political process. We gave the life issue. We decided that we were going to win this issue with political power and I understand there's a role for political power, but you have to understand the dynamic of politics and the way politics works. Power, but you have to understand the dynamic of politics and the way politics works.

Roland Warren: 32:36

When you have a political framework, you essentially have two people with a set of convictions so I'm an environmentalist and you're a big lumber or something right and we are in this political debate about what to do with this piece of land and we get in a room and then we come up with a compromise. So we compromise aspects of our convictions in order to reach a compromise. So the political process, by its very nature, is two people coming with a conviction and then letting go of some aspect of their conviction in order to reach a compromise. That's fine with something like land or some other things that are splittable land or some other things that are splittable but when you have a baby, you can't split it. It's an absolute right. You can't split it.

Roland Warren: 33:22

And one of the illustrations I give to people all the time to kind of focus in this way, is remember in 1 Kings, when Solomon was presented with one baby and two women, and both of those women were like well, this is my baby and he's trying to figure out whose baby is it. So he first starts with a political solution Bring me my sword, I'll just cut the thing and you'll get your half. And you'll get your half. That's the politics of it. Everybody gets what they. And the mother of the child? Oh, no, no. And the mother of the child? Oh no, no, no, no, no. She can have the child, she can have the child. Why? Because, see, she was focused on righteousness and justice and mercy for the vulnerable.

Chris Grainger: 33:59

Yeah.

Roland Warren: 34:01

Right, yep. And so she realized no, no, because you can't split the baby and get righteousness and justice and mercy, right. So Solomon, in his role first as a king, but he had wisdom, he also had other roles, as kind of a priest and a prophet. It was a spiritual thing. In other words, the pro-life perspective will split the baby, so to speak, because we're negotiating a political narrative, but the pro-abundant life perspective was no, no, let's solve for justice and mercy and righteousness, right. Which means that that perspective has to lead.

Roland Warren: 34:33

On an issue that is a moral issue, that perspective has to lead. So it's essentially exchanging the podium for the pulpit in terms of who leads on this issue. We've been allowing the podium to lead on this issue. No, the pulpit needs to lead on this issue, because the pulpit understands that you can't split the baby. The podium says, well, we kind of can split the baby. You see what I'm saying. So that's again when you think through the difference between being pro-life and pro-abundant life. This is what I'm talking about and again, it's because that's the very nature of the political process, is what it does, it's part of the very nature of it 100%, 100%.

Chris Grainger: 35:13

Guys, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be coming right back. We're making a big change that I think you're really going to enjoy. I spent a lot of time thinking about our spiritual kickoffs and, honestly, I love doing them each week, so much so we started doing them live every Monday through Friday inside our exclusive platform, and here's the best part we decided to give full access, completely free, so now you can join our daily spiritual kickoff space at no cost.

Chris Grainger: 35:47

Every day, we go live to read the word, to encourage each other and find simple and powerful ways to apply God's truth to our lives. You'll even have the chance to engage with me directly, and if you missed a live stream, don't worry. The videos are posted the same day so you can catch up whenever it works for you. This is exclusive behind behind the scenes content that is not available anywhere else, and now we've removed every excuse. So if you're ready to get started, head over to the lion withinus and grab your free access today. Let's grow together, rolling the second pillar of your pro, abundant, lifeundant life model I absolutely love. I feel like it's such a missing component in many areas, even from Christian teaching. But discipleship I'm very curious. Can you just unpack what you mean by that for the pro-abundant life model?

Roland Warren: 36:50

Yeah, it's really the. So the second pillar is that God's called to discipleship. So it's basically looking at the life issue through the lens of discipleship. In other words, someone who's facing an unplanned pregnancy you look at that issue through. This person needs to become a disciple of Jesus Christ. So your first thought when you see a woman facing an unplanned pregnancy is not like where do I need, who do I need to vote for so that she can't have an abortion, or what kind of material support she needs Both issues that are important, but that's not my primary thing as a Christian. Your first thought should be is she a disciple of Jesus Christ? The child growing inside of her needs to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. The guy who got her pregnant needs to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, which means the church leads on that. In other words, you start to view the life issue the way we view so many other good works that Christians do Water for the thirsty, food for the hungry, clothes for the naked, homes for the homeless. Right, there's all kinds of social services organizations that engage in these things, but Christians a lot of times say, well, yeah, I could do that. I could give to UNICEF or CARE or something you know, but I'm going to give to World Vision or I'm going to give to, you know, compassion or you know, or World Relief, like an organization that's linking Bias to Zoe right. In other words, that's not just solving for Bias but also solving for Zoe. And what's happened? Again, in large measure because of the political process. We think about water for the thirsty, food for the hungry, clothes for the naked, all these things through the lens of discipleship, like on ramps to discipleship, but for compassion for the pregnant, we put outside of that framework. So basically, the second pillar of God's call to discipleship is really seeing this issue through the lens of discipleship. And when you do that, then it's something that is absolutely the focus of the church, it's the role of the church. And you asked yourself a question could it be that God is using this unplanned pregnancy in this woman's life that she might become a disciple of Jesus Christ? Could it be and guess what? That's not some crazy theology, because God used an unplanned pregnancy in Mary's life to it in that she would become a disciple of Jesus Christ, that you and I would become disciples of Jesus Christ. Our whole faith is built on an unplanned pregnancy from a human perspective, and God's response, which was to build a family and to make disciples. You see what I'm saying. So that's that second pillar, and when you do that then you say gosh, then this has to be anchored in the church, because the church is the seat of discipleship.

Roland Warren: 39:17

Discipleship happens in the church. So that's why our pregnancy center model and the pregnancy centers, we do evangelism right, so we introduce the gospel and what that does is that creates a convert. The gospel and what that does is that creates a convert. But a discipleship is a longer process. That's why, if you look at again Matthew 28, 19,. It says what To go and make disciples right Baptize them in the name of the Father, son and the Holy Spirit and to what Teach them to obey all that I taught.

Roland Warren: 39:44

Well, you can't do that in a pregnancy center in a several-month perspective that you have there. That's a long-term process, and so a key part of our ministry model is really making sure that people move from pregnancy centers to the church for ongoing support and discipleship. And so we create a ministry called Making Life Disciples, which is designed to teach people in the church to come alongside someone in the church or outside the church who may be facing a pregnancy decision, so you can go to makinglifedisciplescom to learn more about that. But it really is kind of focused on, like, our small groups. So many churches have small groups and a lot of times our small groups are about us loving us. What if your small group became about us loving them? What if your small group was trained so that your local pregnancy center could call up your church and you would come alongside this woman facing a pregnancy decision or this couple facing the pregnancy decision?

Roland Warren: 40:40

Life decisions need life support and the life support they need is sitting in pews right in churches, and so it really is about mobilizing. But once you think about it that way, then you understand that, see, if you're a pro abundant life, you understand. See, a pro abundant life perspective leads you to the cross. You get people to the cross. A pro life perspective often leads you to the poles. Right, she don't need to go to the polls, she needs the cross. And then you take the perspective of the cross to the polls. We've been taking the perspective of the polls back to the church and we've compromised on the issue. So that second pillar again is God's call to discipleship the call to discipleship and viewing the life issue primarily through the lens of a discipleship. It's a discipleship issue that has a political component and a material support need not the other way around.

Chris Grainger: 41:36

I'm also super curious because there's so many Christian men in particular listening to the lion and they want to be active. They want to understand where to put their time, their talent, their treasure. To your point, where she'll be funding Care Net. Maybe explain, you know you're president, you're CEO of Care Net. Explain how that works and what you're doing to support that pro-abundant life movement.

Roland Warren: 42:00

Yeah, yeah, again, we have a very robust ministry model. Again, you can come to our website, care-netorg care-netorg to learn about what we're doing from a ministry perspective. I mentioned Making Life Disciples as a core initiative that you could start in your church. Also, there are lots of local pregnancy centers that need the support specifically for men to come alongside, so to walk alongside men who are coming there. More and more of the pregnancy centers are now offering some component of men's ministry. So we want, when that woman comes in facing that pregnancy decision, we want the guy there too, and we need men to come alongside and walk alongside that guy who's facing the pregnancy decision.

Roland Warren: 42:42

A lot of these guys grew up without fathers. They're terrified of becoming fathers. Maybe you've been a father for decades. Will you mentor this young man? Same thing in terms of marriage. A lot of these guys are in relationships and they've never even seen what a godly marriage looks like. You've been married for decades. Will you mentor this young couple? She doesn't have a place to live. Do you have an extra room? He needs a job. You got a business or connections that can help make that happen. Again, these are the life decisions that lead to the life support perspective.

Roland Warren: 43:12

And then also a key thing for us too, is the post-abortion piece. We have so many people sitting in pews that have made the abortion decision and they need to be healed and forgiven and set free. So we have a ministry on ramp which you can go to called abortionhealingorg, which is our ministry on-ramp for post-abortion. For women, we've got a robust ministry called Forgiven and Set Free, and for men we have one called Reclaiming Fatherhood. So if you're a guy who's listening, who had an abortion in your past and you need healing and to be set free Absolutely, we've got a ministry for that. And why is that so important? It's important because there's so many people who aren't taking action because they feel that they can't. They're paralyzed by their past, they're so locked up in the guilt and the shame of the past decision. And the encouragement that's in scripture for us is really, and particularly for men, in this context.

Roland Warren: 44:08

You know, peter aborted Jesus because an abortion is a rejection of vulnerable life. That's what he did. He aborted. He said I don't know this, dude. Right, that's what abortion is. That's what you're saying to the child. I don't know this child, you know, I don't. I don't know them. Well, isn't this your baby? No, I look, I got nothing to do here, right?

Roland Warren: 44:24

Well, what did Jesus do after Peter aborted him? He said, well, I guess this guy's not fit for service anymore. No, he called him and he restored him. Do you love me? Do you love me, do you love me? And then he told him feed my sheep, and that whole perspective. He gave him a mission. In other words, he was called and then mission. And then Peter became one of the obviously one of the most effective disciple makers. For Christ, the for Christ. The same thing happens on the abortion issue. If you have a past abortion in your life, god wants to use that to help you become an effective disciple maker. He'll take that in your life and use it for your good and for his glory. So, but you need to be set free, you need to work through. You know that perspective and the choice that you made there. But there's you know again, there's room at the cross for all of us and he wants to put us into service.

Chris Grainger: 45:12

Amen, amen. I am curious too, roland. I mean, obviously you have so much expertise here and this is you're so passionate about it For the everyday guy that's out there, maybe speak to him for a minute. You know we're in a post Roe v Wade decision now. It's very hot so far as you can get people very worked up in debates over this whole pro-life, pro-choice. You know what does that mean. Do you have any practical tips or encouragement for just the everyday guy out there that's listening that you know, if they want to actually do something to support it and without being, I guess, you know, viewed as a radical or something like that, I'm just curious, like, practically, how would you suggest getting started?

Roland Warren: 46:02

Yeah, I think you know I always start with the why, like why are you doing this and why are you engaged on this issue? Start with the why, like why are you doing this and why are you engaged on this issue? And if you're engaging on this issue to win a political argument or just an argument in general, you know that's always going to be more confrontational in terms of what happens there. You know, my encouragement to folks first is to understand, like, what is our call as Christians, and then the life issue is lived out in the context of our call. So the call for any guy as a Christian from Christ is pretty simple. What did Christ do? He lived out the great commandment to fulfill the great commission. That's what he did. He just walked around living out the great commandment to fulfill the great commission On the cross, living out the great commandment to fulfill the great commission. What's the great commandment?

Roland Warren: 46:48

Well, luke 10, 27 talks about we're called to love God. Love our neighbor as our, as ourself, and right and and loving God, loving your neighbor as yourself. Well, there's three loves there Loving God got it Loving your neighbor and then loving self. Those three loves like a Trinity that if you disconnect one of those loves, then you would take what you take what's a virtue and you make it into a vice. Right, so I don't love God, but I do love my neighbor, I do love myself. That's humanism. So you can kind of go through that. Well, when you unpack that in the context of like as a guy for the life issue, you realize that that the word that's used for neighbor means near one in English near one or near fellow, and we talk about nearness in terms of proximity, like I'm next to you, or relationship, I'm here next to kin. Well, the baby in the womb is the woman's near one, right, it's her nearest near one. And also for the guy who got her pregnant. That's why you can't support abortion as a Christian. It's a violation of the great commandment.

Roland Warren: 47:47

So, as ament, so what are you called to do then as a guy? Practically well, live out the great commandment. That means you need to help a neighbor, love a neighbor. So what I've found is, if you're having conversations and I really, again, my thing is not like trying to engage, like the broader culture first. First we actually need to engage the church. The problem with the abortion issue is not the broader culture, the problem with the abortion issue is the church, that we have too many people in the church that are not looking at the abortion issue through the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. So as you engage, start having conversations with people, say, listen, I am looking for ways to live out the Great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission. That's what I'm looking for and I'm looking for service opportunities to basically do that.

Roland Warren: 48:32

So when you volunteer at a pregnancy center to walk alongside a guy facing a pregnancy decision, practical right, you're living out the great commandment to fulfill the great commission, right To help him live out the great commandment to love the neighbor in the girl and the woman's womb and also the woman herself because she is his neighbor. And also abortion is a violation of the Great Commission. Why? Because you're called to make disciples of who your neighbors and your first neighborhood is your children. So abortion is a violation of the Great Commandment and the Great Commission.

Roland Warren: 49:05

So when you're practically looking at it you say, well gosh, I'm getting involved in this issue, not because of some political narrative, necessarily, but I'm getting involved in this issue because as a Christian, I'm called to live out the Great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission and I'm looking for opportunities to do that so you support single moms who are facing pregnancy decisions and maybe need some support in some way, shape or form, or someone who's facing, you know, this type of decision abortion decision or walk alongside a guy who's facing that kind of decision with your time, your talent and your treasure, that kind of thing.

Roland Warren: 49:36

And there's plenty of opportunities to do that.

Roland Warren: 49:39

And one of the major major needs we have again is that pregnancy centers and life affirming ministries for men to step in, not just with you know, kind of fixing stuff and that kind of thing, but also to get involved in the ministry of coming alongside a guy who's facing a pregnancy decision and saying, listen, I want to walk alongside you in this, and particularly if you've been in that journey where you've either faced an unplanned pregnancy whether it was abortion or not, it doesn't really matter you have a unique perspective that that guy needs to hear. And as we get more and more men stepping into that role, what you'll start to see is the abortion, the abortion perspective change in the broader square. You have more men that are stepping into the issue and saying I will support this woman, hopefully stepping up as husbands and fathers in that role, and then what you start to see from that is a reduction of abortion, because men are stepping in with their time, their talent and treasure to come alongside other men who are facing a pregnancy decision no-transcript.

Chris Grainger: 50:58

What do you enjoy doing?

Roland Warren: 50:59

Any hobbies that you have well, I got grandkids, so those are my hobbies. I don't play golf or any of that kind of stuff. I lift weights and exercise to try to make sure I can be around and be able to move around for my grandkids. That's what I love to do. It's just such a blessing. I really didn't have my grandparents very much involved in my life, so it brings me great joy to be involved in my grandkids' life.

Chris Grainger: 51:25

So are they local in the area.

Roland Warren: 51:27

Yeah, four of them are local. Well, three in one coming in July local. The other one's in LA, so we try to get out there as much. So I've got four and hopefully five, by God's grace coming in July.

Chris Grainger: 51:39

Well, I mean, as a July baby, I will tell you they are the best. So we pray for a healthy delivery there in July. That's awesome, that's awesome. How about favorite food, roland? What's your, what's your go-to?

Roland Warren: 51:51

Gosh, it's stuff I shouldn't eat. Probably chocolate chip cookies. Love those, love me, I can hurt myself with some chocolate chip cookies. There you go.

Chris Grainger: 52:00

Sweet too, huh.

Roland Warren: 52:02

Yeah.

Chris Grainger: 52:03

How about all time favorite movie? What do you enjoy? Oh gosh.

Roland Warren: 52:12

All time favorite movie. What do you enjoy? Oh gosh, um, all-time favorite movie. Oh, I don't know. Oh, brother, we're out there. It's probably up there on my list, okay, nacho nacho libre. We like the silly ones, the silly ones. There you go. Yes, and napoleon dynamite, that one's, that's a good one. Those lines are used often in my family.

Chris Grainger: 52:30

I hear you. I hear you. I can honestly say those three movies had never been brought up when I asked that question.

Roland Warren: 52:37

So you started. Yeah, I was told you're Gone with the Wind or some erudite movie. No, not around here. We love to laugh, so love it, Love it.

Chris Grainger: 52:46

Well, if you let's speak about laughing if you could have a super power, which one would you pick and how would you use it? You know, I've got all these super powers out there.

Roland Warren: 52:57

Oh geez, it's almost like the Solomon question. Um, I think I think it'd be cool to fly Right. That would be that. Yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, it's places very quickly, and yeah, I think that'd be that'd be super cool With Maryland.

Chris Grainger: 53:10

I'm sure there's a lot of traffic, so that would probably come in pretty handy for you.

Roland Warren: 53:13

Yes, yes, I got a terrible commute, so, yes, flying would be very helpful, nice.

Chris Grainger: 53:19

You look back over the last six or 12 months, Roland, what did you spend too much time doing? We always ask this to kind of give the guys some reflective time.

Roland Warren: 53:29

Oh, let's see Too much time doing Probably worrying. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say that's probably it.

Chris Grainger: 53:39

Yeah, easy to get caught in that trap. Easy for sure. Well, when you think about God, what's your favorite thing about him?

Roland Warren: 53:54

I think I'd say probably that he's, that he's personal, you know, it's the Emmanuel thing, god with us. You know that piece. I think that when you really lean into that, you know it really helps you not view God abstractly, you know, and, and you can view him concretely, you know. So, you know, when I think that way, when I'm praying, I'm thinking, well, okay, like this is a real person, you know, that cares about me and that loves me, and you know, then it, then it, it. It stops you and prevents prayer for being like rote and formulaic. You know, and that can happen sometimes.

Roland Warren: 54:29

You know, I get in that mode. I got my prayer times, let me get that and check that off the list. But you know, you know, mindful of times, like no, no, this is a real relationship with a real God who's with you and wants to be with you and bring that peace. And, yeah, so that that to me, when I'm reminded of that, you know that he'll never leave me, that he'll never forsake me, that his peace is not just with me but he is with me as well, not just the peace of God, but the God of peace is with me. I think that personal connection I think is so important to be mindful of and easy to lose that perspective. And when that happens and it becomes just religion, you know kind of formulaic framework.

Chris Grainger: 55:15

Yes, sir, now let's flip it 180. What's your least favorite thing about the evil one?

Roland Warren: 55:26

Well, it's just the whole notion of I mean, it goes back to John 10, 10, what kill, kill, steal, kill and destroy. You know, and you just see that and you see the consequences of that. I see it in my own life, I see it in our communities. We see it in terms of the injustice that happens particularly to the, you know, to the vulnerable, you know, um it just it's just heartbreaking. You know that, that that's his intent, but it is.

Chris Grainger: 55:53

Yeah. So, yeah, 100 percent. Last question for you, roland what do you hope the guys listening remember the most from our conversation today?

Roland Warren: 56:04

Well, I'm kind of like a broken record. I mean, basically, you know just that your mind be transformed from a pro-life perspective to a pro-abundant life perspective, and when more and more people string that together. The reason I'm so encouraged there is that when you start to think about that way then, yeah, you want to fight to change the laws and defund Planned Parenthood, all these different things. Yeah, you want to do that. But what? You realize that even if those things don't happen, that you can make abortion unthinkable, even if it's legal.

Roland Warren: 56:34

People used to ask, you know, often, when Roe was on the books, when's Roe going to be overturned? And I tell them all the time I say Roe is overturned. Every day there are women, every single day, that are rejecting abortion. When she rejects abortion, she overturned Roe, my wife overturned Roe. So even though it was perfectly legal, it was unthinkable.

Roland Warren: 56:53

So you realize that, gosh, if you make it unthinkable, then it takes the power of it being legal or not legal. And then, frankly, when it becomes unthinkable enough, then guess what actually ends up happening? It becomes illegal. But if you make it illegal and it's not unthinkable, then you get what we kind of have now, right. So we've got a tremendous power as Christians, to sit knee to knee with folks and, by the transforming power of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the love that we're called to give to people, to make it unthinkable in the lives of folks. And that's a power that no party can take from us, no one can take from us. We have the ability to transform hearts and then that transforms minds, and when that happens, then the legislative stuff takes care of itself. So to me, that whole notion like really changing your perspective, being pro-abundant life, anchoring in John 10, 10, jesus's wise statement, that's the way forward and oh, by the way, it's always been the way forward.

Chris Grainger: 57:56

We just lost our way. So Amen, amen. Well, roland, where do you want to send the listeners to connect with you? The wonderful stuff at Care Net to get a copy of the book? Just want to give you a chance to share your links here.

Roland Warren: 58:06

Yeah, so you can go. The book is on Amazon. Books are sold, so go on Amazon. You can search for that. I've got several other books that I've also written. Along with the Alternative to Abortion, I wrote one called Raising Sons of Promise, a guide for single mothers of boys, which kind of talks about specifically how do you raise boys in a way that they don't become baby daddies but become husbands and fathers, even if they're growing up in a single mother environment. And I've got Bad Dads of the Bible Eight Mistakes that Every Good Dad Can Avoid. So I wrote that one some years ago as well, when I was with National Fatherhood Initiative. So those books are also on Amazon as well. If you want to come to the website, it's rolandcwarrencom, but lots of different ways to get to us.

Chris Grainger: 58:54

Right? Well, it's been an absolute honor to have you here. We'll have those links in the show notes. Guys, go get a copy of the book. Anything else you'd like to share today, sir?

Roland Warren: 59:02

No, thanks so much for your time. I appreciate it. And just blessings to all your listeners. Yes, blessings to all your listeners.

Chris Grainger: 59:07

Yes, sir, god bless. You have a great day.

Roland Warren: 59:09

All right, take care.

Chris Grainger: 59:19

Bye. Most men are fighting battles no one sees Strain marriages, silent wounds, pressure to lead without a place to rest. That's why we created our community to help build, strength, sharpen and support brothers just like you. And now it's even easier to join than ever. We've lowered access to just $15.99 a month. Immediately, you'll get our daily spiritual kickoffs, our Bible studies, Lion Lunches, friday Forge and so much more. Every man needs a strong hold and you don't have to fight alone. Join today at the lion within dot us that's the lion within dot us and get started today. All right, guys, thank you again for rolling, for coming on, absolutely enjoyed having him and just for the wonderful wisdom, discernment and insight that he shared. Hopefully you guys enjoyed it too.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:06

The question that of the week that we really have been focusing on is how are you protecting the vulnerable where you can? You can't save them all, but you can save some. The word of God has placed you. What are you doing to proactively be on the offense as well as the defense of others? Guys again, go to the website, the lion withinus to get started with your daily spiritual kickoff. You get started with your community to get started with your leadership mastermind.

Chris Grainger: 1:00:37

Go to the Bible app. Open up the Bible app right now. If you have that on your phone, search for the lion within us. You'll see all of our Bible studies. We have tons and tons and tons of studies out there. You may find some that you actually enjoy just going through and working through with your small groups All these ways we try to serve. Sign up for the weekly roar that comes out every Monday morning. It's an email that you're not going to want to delete. I promise you, guys it'll get you a little boost to your week as you get started Again. All this is found at thelionwithinus. So, guys, have a great day. Come back on Friday. Look forward to hanging out with you then. We'll see you then and just keep unleashing the lion within.