Chris Grainger: 1:10

Welcome to the land within us podcast, serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders God intends you to be. I'm your host, chris Granger, let's jump in. All right, guys, it's your meat episode, let's get right into it. Okay, so scripture to week this week is in Philippians, chapter three. Looking at verse seven says but whatever were gains to me, I now consider loss. For the sake of Christ, guys, I unpacked that scripture at length in our daily spiritual kickoffs. To go back to Guys, I unpacked that scripture at length in our latest spiritual kickoff episode. So go back your last podcast in your podcast feed and you'll find that episode right there. Ok, so hopefully you guys enjoy that. And again, if you like, the spiritual kickoff episodes where we just talk about reflections on how you simplify and apply God's word to our life as leaders. That's all we do. We do this every day inside our line, within this community, with our daily spiritual kickoff. You would be encouraged, you would be blessed. Guys actually love it. They enjoy it. So go check out thelionwithinus to get started, to get your profile set up to be part of our daily spiritual kickoff group.

Chris Grainger: 2:20

Okay, so today, guys, we're going to be talking about a topic that is taboo often and shame on us for making it taboo, but it has to do with around sexuality, pornography. How do we address that? How does the church not address that? Rather, because the church doesn't do anything about it most of the time, and to have this conversation we brought in Nick Stumbo. Now he is the executive director for Pure Desire. So this ministry is all focused on sexual integrity and they equip men, women, students, youth, churches with resources and structured groups to bring hope and healing from the effects of the sexual brokenness that's in this world. It's just everywhere, right From addiction to betrayal to even more.

Chris Grainger: 3:05

He was a senior pastor for more than a decade and he saw this in his own life. I mean, he saw it definitely in the people in and around him. But also he shared some very personal details around he and his wife Michelle, and how they found hope and healing through the ministries of pure desire and to the point you know, he went full disclosure to his church. It led to a revival of forgiveness and healing like no other, and from there now he's with Pure Desire as the executive director and he's just doing some incredible things. He's got four kids.

Chris Grainger: 3:41

We talked about that. We talked about so many things. This is a genuine conversation. This is an authentic conversation. For sure, if you have teenagers in your home, this may be a conversation that you want to invite them into, to listen to this together, to let them hear about the different ways and resources and tools to equip you as a family to combat the lies of the evil one, to put light on the dark topic of pornography and hopefully equip you to at least lead better and more effectively in this area.

Chris Grainger: 4:17

So, hopefully you enjoyed this conversation with my friend Nick Stumbo. Welcome to the Lion Within Us. How are you doing today, sir?

Nick Stumbo: 4:27

Doing well. Thanks for having me for this conversation.

Chris Grainger: 4:30

Oh, I'm so excited to have you here with us and, before we dive into too deep, share with us something fun about you that maybe not many people know about.

Nick Stumbo: 4:39

Well, I mean, not many people publicly might know, but if they know me as a person, they know I'm a big Minnesota Twins fan.

Chris Grainger: 4:46

Yeah, okay.

Nick Stumbo: 4:47

When I was a little kid, my parents would go to Minnesota on vacations and we went into the Metrodome in the 80s back when they had Kirby Puckett and Kent Herbeck and the announcer would, when Kirby Puckett came up, had this big you know Kirby Puckett and the place would go wild. I was from a small town in central Wyoming and when I saw 50,000 people, you know, go crazy for a baseball game, I became a huge fan and have been ever since. So I have a lot of hard days in the summer because the twins haven't won a whole lot of playoff games in the last 20 years. So yeah, that's a big part of my sports world is being a twins fan.

Chris Grainger: 5:27

Well, I mean, you did have to bring up the one sore spot for me, because I'm a Braves fan and Kirby Puckett man. He was the dagger to us growing up as a Braves fan. So, man, what a cool experience that probably was going to that stadium.

Nick Stumbo: 5:40

Well, you guys have had a couple of World Series wins since then, and the Twins have been on what would that be now? A 33-year drought. So, yeah, you got your payback. So, yeah, yeah, you got you got your payback.

Chris Grainger: 5:52

It was always. I always thought as a kid growing up, watching them play in that stadium, man, that was, that was something special, because it was just. I always seemed like it was extra loud and then the way the balls bounced and it was just, it was crazy just watching them play the game there.

Nick Stumbo: 6:06

Yeah Well, they basically played on like a carpet. That you know, now that they've got all that great AstroTurf, now that's supposed to mimic the look and feel of grass and they, you know they didn't do that in the nineties. It was just like a hard carpet and sometimes those singles would bounce over the outfielder's head and it would turn into a triple. And yeah, those were some unique days when they played in the Metrodome.

Chris Grainger: 6:26

No kidding. No kidding, well, that's great, great story, great insight.

Nick Stumbo: 6:46

A no kidding, well, that's great, great story, great insight, a good fun fact, and maybe just unpack a little bit about you and your story for our listeners out there who don't know you and what you guys do at Pure Desire. But I know you have a very impactful story, definitely lots to share here. And I just to say that my experience, I think, was fairly typical from what I've heard from so many men that I experienced sexual things at a young age. While being at a friend's house, his parents were watching a movie that had some pretty graphic sexual content and at that point in my life I had never seen anything like that. But I knew two things right away I knew that it was bad and that I wanted to see more, and that created this very secret and shameful response.

Nick Stumbo: 7:18

A secret in that I didn't think I could tell my mom and dad because they'd be mad and might not let me go to that friend's house anymore. And yet shame that there was something in me that was curious, had been awakened and wanted more, and I thought I wasn't supposed to like those kinds of things. And so my introduction to sexuality was very secretive and shameful and that played into my teenage years when I discovered pornographic magazines. And then, you know, the late nineties, the internet became a thing and you found those same images were available online and they were free. And in my story, being from a Christian home and having a sincere faith, it was always this binge purge kind of relationship that every time was the last time I got that out of my system. I was just curious, it'll never happen again. And then another a week later, or a month later, or maybe in a really good stretch, I would go a couple of months and then I would go back into viewing pornography and acting out with masturbation and just really feeling that cycle of intense guilt and shame. And I would take that all in confession to God and oftentimes to other people and believe that. Okay, now I've confessed it. Well enough, I've got it out there, I'm good to go, and yet I would find myself stumbling back over and over, and that was really a pattern that repeated itself into adulthood, into my marriage even though I had a wonderful marriage to a godly woman and into my ministry.

Nick Stumbo: 8:43

I had been trained for pastoral ministry, went into church ministry at 22 years old as an associate pastor and at 25 became the senior pastor, and in my story at that age, you know, being such a young lead pastor I felt the pressure of now I need to be the guy, I need to be the most spiritual person in the room, and I can't acknowledge this struggle in my life because that would invalidate me being the senior pastor. And so the only safe person to continue telling was my wife, who already knew about the struggle, and I had been honest with her, you know, to a degree throughout our marriage, where I would come back and say you know, hey, I'm sorry this has happened again. I'm trying really hard though, and here's why this is the last time. It'll never happen again, I promise, and after 10 years of that in our marriage, for my wife carrying that burden of my secrets and seeing that it wasn't changing in the way it was causing her tremendous pain and feeling like she couldn't trust me and it was never going to stop, our marriage was really at a breaking point. And if our marriage was at a breaking point then ministry and being the pastor would be as well, because typically if the pastor's wife leaves him because he's using pornography, he doesn't get to be the pastor much longer. That's right, and so really everything was hanging in the balance for us.

Nick Stumbo: 10:07

My wife and I discovered for the first time Pure Desire Ministries and their approach to counseling and having a very biblical approach and yet also understanding a lot about the science of addiction, okay, what was happening in our brain and how. All of that was deeply spiritual, and we went through a process of a year of counseling and both of us being in groups myself for the ones who struggled and my wife a spouse's group for their own care and support and it was really a transforming journey in our marriage and in my own behaviors, learning things about myself and why I did what I didn't want to do. That I'd really just never been able to understand before, and it created a whole new pattern of health and recovery in my life and in our marriage that ultimately, we shared with our church. So on a Sunday morning in 2011, as I was preaching on Romans, chapter 7, and you know that great passage where the Apostle Paul wrestles with saying why do I do the very thing I hate? Why do I do what I don't want to do? You know what a wretched man I am, but thanks be to God who always leads us in victory, in joyful procession through God.

Nick Stumbo: 11:13

And saying in that sermon that I think I can bring a unique perspective to this passage today, because for 15 years in my life I've struggled with an addiction to pornography and I got to share about our healing journey.

Nick Stumbo: 11:26

I got to talk about what my wife and I were experiencing, about how the elders had supported us to find healing, and then I got to invite men and women in our church into a similar healing experience, as we launched groups for men and women, and that really became a defining moment in our church.

Nick Stumbo: 11:43

It changed the trajectory of how we did ministry, how we did discipleship, and it opened the door for other men and women to say me too right, because a senior pastor can say I've had this issue and, by God's grace, I'm finding healing and they didn't get rid of me, they didn't kick me out. Then people in the church see this really is safe to talk about and we watched this really become the most significant discipleship ministry in our church because it is so common, so many people are struggling, and we finally had a strategy, we had a solution to say here is a pathway to freedom, and it really revolutionized, I think, ministry in our church and then really because of that, I stayed connected to Pure Desire Ministries. I would speak at an event with them now and then, and through that, ended up becoming the executive director of the ministry in 2016.

Nick Stumbo: 12:37

And so I tell people I left traditional ministry for non-traditional ministry, but I feel like I'm still a pastor, just pastoring men and women who are in recovery of their own sexual brokenness and learning how to invite Christ into some very deep places of trauma and woundedness and then to find healing and really find freedom from this destructive behavior.

Nick Stumbo: 12:58

So, for the last eight years that's been my ministry to be a part of Pure Desire and using my story and what God has kind of created as the core principles of our ministry to help other men and women heal and find lasting freedom.

Chris Grainger: 13:15

We definitely want to unpack that a whole lot further. Nick, I kind of want to go back as well. You mentioned godly home. Obviously you got to introduce that at a sleepover. Things happen, they escalate. You went to seminary and you did the biblical training there to prepare you for the pastoral path that you're on now. I'm curious in your seminary training, were there ever any courses or topics or papers or just conversations around? You know pornography and the impact on the church as part of your formal training?

Nick Stumbo: 13:52

That is a great question, chris, and the answer is no, there really wasn't. There wasn't a class, there wasn't instruction offered. I remember in a ethics class I chose to write a paper on the impact of pornography in our culture, in the world, and, maybe because it was on my heart, I knew I didn't want it in my life. I wanted freedom and I saw what it did in our world. And maybe because it was on my heart, I knew I didn't want it in my life. I wanted freedom and I saw what it did in our world, and so I wrote about it. But from an educational level, a care level, there was nothing intentional that was done.

Nick Stumbo: 14:22

I do like to tell the story that in college, as I'm preparing for ministry, I developed a accountability group with three other guys that were on a similar pathway and we would meet weekly for prayer for accountability. But we didn't have any tools or resources. We only knew to ask the questions that come up in a lot of men's accountability Did you look at anything inappropriate this week? Did you lie to anyone, did you masturbate? And we became comfortable asking those questions of one another and what I found is we also became answering in the negative that if we'd had a rough week, man, it was great to have a safe place to share, but without any tools or resources to really change. It almost became enabling to say, man, I've got these three men that they know my secrets, they pray for me and, yeah, I'm still struggling, but I'm working, I'm trying really hard. I've got men that know.

Nick Stumbo: 15:12

Because that was kind of the paradigm the church handed us was tell the truth, confess to other men, have accountability and you'll be free.

Nick Stumbo: 15:20

And we had that. We had it in a very beautiful, meaning way, beautifully meaningful way, and I continued to struggle, and so that was really the only thing I had in Bible college and seminary was a form of accountability, but without any deeper understanding of why I was doing what I did and tools to actually change. I found that it really became just a kind of performance group where I tried to perform good so I could say, yes, I've had a great week, and then I felt really guilty when I'd had a bad week. But they were all in that same kind of pattern too, and so it was a bit like the blind leading the blind. Um, and you just keep hoping like, okay, maybe this time it'll work, maybe this time it'll, it'll really set in and I'll. I'll not go back, um, but like I said, I was. I was so blind to what was happening under the surface in my life that that context of just having honesty and accountability really wasn't enough to create change.

Chris Grainger: 16:15

And you were in. Let me get the dates right. What years were you in seminary? Was it early 2000s?

Nick Stumbo: 16:20

1996 to 2001 was my undergrad, my Bible college, and then I did seminary a little later, while I was in ministry Gotcha.

Chris Grainger: 16:30

Gotcha. So I'm curious, looking at the landscape now and you may not know, but has it shifted? Have they put more intentional focus in the seminary teaching around pornography, around how to address it from the church position? You know, if a man, you probably, I'm sure you're aware of all the statistics that women are consuming it at alarming rates now as well, so it's not just a guy thing. But has anything changed on the curriculums and the teachings from the formal standpoint of the seminaries?

Nick Stumbo: 17:04

From what I hear, chris, it really hasn't. I'm not aware of studies or anything in particular where that could be proved true, but in terms of the men and pastors I hear from and the women that we hear from Bible colleges and seminaries, still don't really know how to address this. I think sometimes it's a little bit of a game of pass the buck that they want it to be addressed at the dorm floors, you know kind of the residential student level, but at that level they want it to be a chapel or the chaplain's kind of job and the chaplain wants it to be student affairs or student development. Everybody wants to do something, but I think on the college campus there really is a lack of ownership to say we need to make this an integral part of training and developing young men and women for health. You know we do it in so many other areas. We try to develop people for relational health and financial health, obviously, spiritual health, but there is still little to nothing on understanding our sexuality from a biblical worldview, understanding the nature of addiction and the process of what's happening in the brain with all the chemicals that are involved in our sexuality, and so it just gets left. What I perceive is that seminaries encourage young men and women to deal with it. They hope something is happening, but other than a few pockets, there's very little being done institutionally for colleges and universities to say we are going to make sure that we in every way possible equip our future leaders, our future pastors and missionaries for health in this area. And I think it's a great question because I believe when colleges and seminaries make that turn to see, it is our responsibility to help train men and women in this area. Just as much as we train them in Bible and theology and preaching, we need to train them in sexual health. I think when that turn happens we'll see a real difference, because it is in my opinion I don't know if you would agree, I think a lot of listeners would I think this is the number one issue that takes people out of lifelong ministry.

Nick Stumbo: 19:05

It's the reason many men do not finish well or don't stay in ministry because they aren't able to address. Just like in my story, there really wasn't a safe way to address my sexual brokenness and so, without a safe place or way to address it, we just internalize it. We try to you know, try hard or not to and do our best to deal with it, but we're dealing with it in isolation. And so then we see all the stories that are happening around us when these super well-known pastors and leaders are falling and being disgraced and removed from ministry, and I always look at those stories and say, you know, that is not where their story started, this story in their life.

Nick Stumbo: 19:42

You know, it didn't start with the affair, it didn't start with the abuse, it didn't start with whatever it is that ruins their ministry. It probably started 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago with unaddressed patterns of sexuality, like pornography and lust and fantasy, and without a safe place to acknowledge. I am a pastor and I'm also a human being with sexual desires that I haven't figured out yet. Right, they just kept going and it got deeper and worse until it ultimately derails an entire career. And so that's where I go back and say if colleges and seminaries could take serious that that we are the right training ground to help men and women in this area, man, I just think it would be a real game changer.

Chris Grainger: 20:23

Amen to that, amen. Hey guys, we're going to take our first break. We'll come back. We'll keep digging in.

Chris Grainger: 20:34

I don't know about you, but I used to find Mondays really rough. I would find myself trying to reset for work, trying to get my bearing on the family calendar, trying to find time for my own spiritual growth and development, and often I found myself overwhelmed or just flatly ignoring aspects of my life that I know are meaningful to me. What I learned was that if I had immediate access to important and impactful spiritual topics and reflections to start my week well after the allure of a Sunday sermon has passed, I would set my whole week up to be more meaningful and for the opportunity to make a true impact. To be more meaningful and for the opportunity to make a true impact. If you think that getting such a boost would help your week to get started on the right foot, we would love for you to sign up for the Weekly Roar, which is our newsletter that is produced by the Lion Within Us. Each week will deliver a powerful reflection and practical steps to help you apply Scripture with clarity and purpose, all being rooted in light and truth. So in just a few minutes, we hope to arm you with insights for living out biblical leadership with confidence and strength, and maybe even have a little extra bounce in your step. If that sounds useful, head over to thelionwithinus slash roar to sign up today. That's thelionwithinus slash r-o-a-r. To get your weekly roar today.

Chris Grainger: 22:07

Nick, I'm super curious because from when I hear that man like I have an engineering background. Ok, so I graduated in 03 from Old Dominion, and if I were to go back to ODU right now and and they're teaching the same curriculum without you know, with the advancements of technology that has happened over the last 20 years, and it almost equated to like if I were to take an electrical engineering program back when I took it and all we did was analog, we didn't do any digital classes. Like we're missing the boat. It's to me it seems such a clear miss here of like this is your pastor's going to deal with it? The congregation is dealing with it? I think stats are what. Like 75% of the congregations is looking or using some form of pornography. I mean, it's crazy.

Nick Stumbo: 22:53

It's 75% of men and 44% of women in the church, so a total of 54% of men and women in the church say this is an ongoing issue in my life.

Chris Grainger: 23:04

Right. So over half the people sitting in every congregation from the pulpit looking out like how can we expect those men standing there to be able to address that from a biblical worldview, the way that we know that the context is going to be such a big deal, the impact on the families and individuals if they don't have formal training? To me it's like engineering school not teaching digital electronics. I'm just, I'm baffled that that's still a myth engineering school not teaching digital electronics.

Nick Stumbo: 23:32

I'm just I'm baffled that that's still a mess. Well, I think what we're seeing is really the overflow of how this topic has been treated in the church really in the last number of decades. This, in my opinion, is the taboo topic, and I still experience a lot of that in churches, where people say my church just does not talk about this Other than to say that sex is for marriage and everything else is bad. We don't talk about it. And at the same time, most of us grew up in homes even if they were very good Christian homes like mine, where we really don't talk about it at home. You know, when I do conferences, I will ask people how many of you grew up in a home where sexuality was talked about in an open, positive way, more than just maybe getting the birds and the bees talk or being told that sex is for marriage and save it for marriage, and routinely it's less than 1% of people raise their hand and say yes, we talked about this in my home. So most of us grew up in homes that didn't talk about it. We go to churches that don't talk about it and then we attend seminaries and Bible colleges that don't really know how to address it and it just kind of becomes this big unaddressed elephant in the room, where we know we are all sexual beings, we know everyone to some degree is dealing with brokenness in this area because we're all sinners and we're all living in a sinful world and yet we haven't been trained how to have conversations, how to talk about it without having incredible shame or, you know, inappropriate. Maybe we've had bad examples. When people do talk about it, it's like they go too detailed and too specific and it's the wrong audience. And we've we've heard those horror stories and so we we swing the pendulum the other way and go well, you know, we're just not going to talk about it.

Nick Stumbo: 25:11

And it's really evidenced in this survey that we did with the Barna group. They asked people, you know, where do you feel safe or where can you go to talk about sexuality, to talk about struggles with pornography, and the number one answer by far was a counselor, which is great. I mean, counselors have a valuable role and here at Pure Desire, we have 15 counselors on our team that help people all over the world. But if you think about the counseling environment, I go privately to a trained professional who is being paid to hear me talk about my issues and give me advice and help, and then I leave that private, huge confidentiality, hipaa law, like no one knows anything. I go back to my normal world where no one else might know anything about what I'm dealing with. But that's our number one answer and I've tried to really encourage leaders, pastors, to see.

Nick Stumbo: 26:06

If all we do is encourage people, go talk to a counselor, we may inadvertently be increasing the feel of isolation and secrecy Because we say we don't know how to deal with this here. This issue is too big and too messy for us, so go talk to that private counselor, get better and come back and don't talk about it when you are better. And that's just not working. People might receive a level of care and help from a counselor. I hope they do.

Nick Stumbo: 26:34

But there's also a lot of stories of really bad counsel that's out there, even from Christian counselors. But if all we're doing is dealing with it in a very private, secretive way, then it's actually continuing that whole problem of this being a very secretive, taboo topic, taboo topic. And that's what I'm so passionate about and what I think Pure Desire is here to do is to try to help the church see that we can have these conversations, we can have them in a safe way, we can have them in a very biblical way and we can have them in a way that encourages men and women to lean into community and not just tell them you know, go home and try harder to live. Live pure by yourself, you know Right.

Chris Grainger: 27:12

I'll tell you another topic, nick, and I'm sure you're all over it too. Outside of just pornography, now you have the whole LGBTQ plus agenda that we have got to figure out a way somehow to stop worrying about stepping on toes and let's just have some real, authentic, obviously grace field but conversations to help people parents dealing with this and individuals dealing with this as well. And all of this is just the whole sexual sin. The snowball just gets bigger. It's not slowing down.

Chris Grainger: 27:41

And we have to figure out ways within our church environments or communities to be able to have these conversations. Because, you're right, a counselor is great at your two o'clock on Tuesday appointment for 60 minutes. But outside of that 60 minutes there's a lot of life that happens, nick. And for me, that's where the power of community comes in, and it sounds like with Pure Desire.

Nick Stumbo: 28:04

This is what you guys are leaning into pretty hard the secrecy that people feel around this topic is really what perpetuates the behavior. Because even if we've learned, you know the church says James chapter five confess your sins one to another and you will be healed. And I absolutely believe the truth of that verse, but I've seen it too often be taught as the end goal Like if you would just confess your sin to someone, you're going to be healed and you'll be able to walk in freedom. When the truth is, confession really needs to be the starting point, not the ending point. You know, if you look at the original language in James 5, that verb there, confess, is actually the Greek ongoing sense, where it should be confessing, and this idea of confessing your sins one to another in an ongoing way. And so I think James is trying to present. We're meant to live in kind of this open, authentic way in community, and that doesn't mean I'm always careful to say that doesn't mean that everybody needs to know all of our stuff all the time. That wouldn't be appropriate or safe. But it does mean we need to have places where there are people that know everything that's going on and why I started this.

Nick Stumbo: 29:16

I think what we've been taught in confession is just to go to someone and say, man, I've struggled with pornography this week and would you pray for me? Well, that's honest. But to say I struggled with pornography is only like the tip of the iceberg. Sure, there's all these questions that need to be addressed of why did you go there, what was going on in your emotional state that led you to that, what was happening in the rest of your life where you were maybe using pornography as a way to deal with those emotions or some pain in life? And it wasn't even really about the pornography or the sexual thing that you were drawn to. It was all this stuff happening underneath the surface. What kind of pornography were you drawn to? How long did you look at it? What sites did you visit? There are some details there that in a safe, intentional group process, when we're able to share to that level with a group and really dig into the details of our story the AA groups have used that phrase for a long time that the devil is in the details, and I think there's so much truth to that that our story of sexual brokenness is really in the details of our story, and what I find for men and women coming into pure desire groups is there are so many pieces of their story that they have never really told anyone, even if they've confessed to others. They've said, hey, I struggle in this area. They haven't gone down to that detail level to actually find the help and traction that they need to understand those. Why? Questions of why do I do what I don't want to do? And so I try to encourage again leaders, pastors and churches to think about it that way.

Nick Stumbo: 30:47

When we talk about confession, we have to make sure that we don't keep it as this broad kind of confess hey, we're all struggling kind of idea, but that we really create healthy environments where men and women can go and they can dig into the nitty gritty of their story and as they do, they have other men or other women who are sitting around them that don't reject them or shame them or react in horror and go oh my gosh, how could you do that? What's wrong with you? Because that's actually the fear that we hold when we haven't told some of the details of our story. There is the shame message and I have found it is so universal I think it's the enemy's one of his master strategies is there's a little piece of our story, the way we struggle, something, we did something that to us feels particularly shameful. And the enemy says if you ever share that part of your story, you will not be loved, you will not be accepted, you will not be wanted, they will want to get rid of you so fast. And that is actually what keeps us from real community and real relationship, because we have to keep everyone at arm's length to keep that part of our story safe, because we have to keep everyone at arm's length to keep that part of our story safe.

Nick Stumbo: 31:52

But when we're an intentional community and we can share to that level and we maybe say out loud something that we've never told anyone else, and rather than getting rejected or shamed or kicked out of the group, people say wow, thank you for sharing. I can relate to that. I understand what you're going through. I've been there. I see that the pain and hurt that you're experiencing you're going through. I've been there. I see that the pain and hurt that you're experiencing, you're not alone. Suddenly, our greatest darkness becomes a place where the light of Christ can shine and real grace can be felt in a way that leads to transformation. But if we don't go to that nitty gritty level, if we don't get into those details, we'll never experience the kind of healing and grace that we need in that part of our story. So, all that to say, confession is absolutely key and we have to go deeper than most people have thought when it comes to confession, which underscores the need for groups, for a community where we can really get to that level of honesty.

Chris Grainger: 32:49

Amen to that, brother. Amen, guys, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to keep digging in here with Nick. When I reflect on the kind of things that the men who participated in our discipleship masterminds had in the past, I am overwhelmed by the quality of their comments and commitment to each other. Several of the guys commented that this was the most meaningful leadership experience they've encountered, and we even had one man log into a discipleship mastermind while a hurricane was hitting his house. He was that committed and received that much from his peer group that he didn't want to miss it. Because of this extraordinary commitment and because it's a true gift and pleasure, we made them a core part of our community and we hope you might join us. We sit up men with their own peer advisory group of seven individuals that meet every other week for 12 weeks. Each member shares areas they want to focus on, such as improving their prayer life, being more intentional with their wives or maybe shedding a few extra pounds Together.

Chris Grainger: 34:01

We help them strategize, make commitments, find accountability and learn. It's been our experience that most guys want a community of trustworthy men to share their ideas and create support for each other with, and it's been our experience that most men don't either create this for themselves or seek them out. So we do this because we want you to have that in your life, and all that is needed to begin winning is you. If this sounds interesting, check out our community to see the dates and times of when these different groups meet. Visit thelionwithinus to start your free trial of our community. To get started today, that's thelionwithinus, and I would love to see you lean in and tap into the power of our discipleship masterminds. So, nick, I'm very curious.

Chris Grainger: 35:01

Kind of going back to your original story, you said something that struck me, I may. I made a note. I know I was gonna circle back to it, so now's the time, okay, so let's, let's, let's dig. Sounds good. You mentioned something that I I personally talked to many guys who struggle with this particular dynamic, and you said that your wife was your accountability partner, and that struck me as extremely interesting. So I'd love for you to unpack, because there's lots of guys that I talked to that they're hiding this thing in the dark man, and I keep telling them you hide it in the dark, the devil's going to kick your butt Like. At some points you got to get this stuff out into the light. But I'm curious like what did that journey look like for you and her? You know how did you guys navigate that together? What encouragement would you give a guy listening now who's looking at porn, who's trying to keep it suppressed? His spouse doesn't know about it? I'd love for you to just unpack this, because this may be very encouraging for somebody.

Nick Stumbo: 35:55

In some ways, the openness I had with my wife is just a byproduct of our story. When we were in Bible college together, we heard a chapel speaker that encouraged us before you got married, that you should tell your spouse your history because they deserved. When they stood at the altar and said I do that they should know what they were saying. I do too, and that made sense to me. I didn't want it to be a secret that I took into marriage and so on a date night that week I shared with her as best as I could kind of my sexual history, my struggles with pornography, and I remember her asking me that night when I shared she said well, why don't you just promise me that you'll never do those things again? And I said to her I really want to make that promise, but I feel like I've made that promise to God, to myself and others many times before and it has a way of coming back and so I'm going to try really hard and I hope it never happens. But I don't think I can make that promise. And I hope it never happens, but I don't think I can make that promise. And I said those words as a 21-year-old, sincere young man who was clearly marrying up. I was marrying this beautiful woman like the woman of my dreams and I was acknowledging there was a behavior in my life. I didn't know if I actually had the ability to stop and I was using the language of addiction without even knowing it, because I had seen I was doing everything I knew to do and it was still happening. Well, because of that level of honesty and engagement, I felt the integrity piece that in our first year of marriage, when I did go back and look at pornography again, I had to come and tell her because she knew and I said, hey, it happened again. I'm so sorry and we created some boundaries. And then it happened again. And that was the first 10 years of our marriage where she was trying to help. We were doing what we knew how to do to have some filters on our phones and not watch certain kind of shows and just the kind of healthy stuff we all should do. But I didn't know any more to do than keep trying harder to change and when it wasn't changing, that was really destroying the fabric of our marriage. Her to change and when it wasn't changing, that was really destroying the fabric of our marriage. And so I tell guys, this is an area where your wife should not be your primary accountability partner, because I watched for 10 years how that burden really destroyed my wife and nearly ended our marriage, because she was really the only one that knew.

Nick Stumbo: 38:07

And while I could go to other men when I felt comfortable asking for accountability, I had that freedom to share my secret when I felt comfortable to. She didn't have that same freedom because it was my secret, so she didn't want to tell her family and make them think less of me. She didn't want to tell my family and cause problems there. She didn't want to tell our church because I was the pastor. So she was trapped holding all of this and it really wasn't healthy. I needed a group, I needed other men that knew everything, that were holding my feet to the fire.

Nick Stumbo: 38:39

And yes, there are things that in recovery we need to be able to tell our wife so that they have confidence that we are doing the right thing, that we're being men of integrity. But if your wife is the only one who knows, you're actually trapping her in an unhealthy place. I've often said to men if she's your accountability partner, she's becoming your mother or your police officer and she doesn't need to be either of those. She needs to be your wife at Pure Desire. We help husbands and wives understand a better way that they do some self-reporting. They create that trust and that accountability, but not in a way where the wife feels like she's looking over his shoulder, saying what are you doing and can I trust you? Because if that's where your wife is at and I would say this very clearly to men who are listening if you feel that your wife's posture towards you and towards lust and pornography is suspicion looking over your shoulder, asking all these questions that's an indication that she is in some pain and trauma over this topic and should motivate you to say man, I need to go get help. Because until your wife feels safe, until she feels like man, I can trust him, I can trust what he's doing, I can trust what he's looking at, I can trust what he's thinking. Until she's in that place of safety, it is negatively impacting your marriage, even if and I'll say this, even if you're having regular sex.

Nick Stumbo: 40:03

Too often men use sex as the barometer of health in the relationship and they think well, you know, we're having sex, so we must be fine, when really the wife might be having sex out of a sense that, well, I need to help him so he doesn't stray. I need to do this because it's my duty as a Christian wife. We do this just because it's what married couples do. There may not be health just because you're having physical connection. In fact, it might be contributing to some unhealth, where she's trying to do it to rescue you. And if your wife is using sex to try to rescue you, it may actually be contributing to your sexual addiction or to your unhealthy needs that you've attached to sex rather than having sex. Be in the marriage what God designed it to be, which is a mutually enjoyable, self-sacrificing kind of connection about the relationship and not just about me getting my needs met. So that's something to pay attention to in your marriage and really a way to approach your spouse is to see that, yes, there needs to be honesty in this area, but they should not be your accountability partner.

Nick Stumbo: 41:05

So the other thing I would say, just last thing on this topic if your wife doesn't know because too many churches and retreats have said this like if your wife doesn't know, you need to go home tonight and tell them everything, and what that actually becomes, I find is a form of emotional vomiting, where the guy goes home and he's he's all convicted and he's like okay, honey, I'm so sorry but I need to tell you everything you know and and they feel better, right, they got it all out. It's like man, this is awesome, she finally knows everything, but just like you, just like threw up all over your wife and it's messy and it's stinky and they're like what do I do with this? And there's no assurance of change. It's a very scary place to be. I want to say to men if your wife doesn't know, the first step you need to take is go to another trusted man in your life and you need to tell him everything.

Nick Stumbo: 41:52

And then you need to get involved in recovery. You need to start going to a weekly group, you need to start educating yourself on what's happening in your brain. You need to be listening to podcasts. You need to start taking steps towards healing so that when you tell your wife, it's not just emotional vomiting but it's a very thought out, honest, fact-based presentation to say here's where I've been and I'm so sorry and I hope you'll forgive me. And here are steps that I'm committed to taking towards my recovery and I want to invite you would you be willing to be a part of my recovery Right, because that's going to be a very, very challenging place for a spouse to be. But when she can see that you're moving towards recovery, not just vomiting your sin all over her, it creates a better opportunity for the couple to work together on healing, versus just getting into this binge purge cycle that my wife and I, honestly, were stuck in for 10 years.

Chris Grainger: 42:44

Yeah, well, that kind of leads me to okay. So if that's the case, then pure desire. What does that look like? How's the framework designed so that if a man doesn't have that in his life, maybe they don't have the relationships they feel like they have, those iron sharpening, iron relationships? Pure desire sounds like it could be an outlet there. So what does that look like? Give us some insight there.

Nick Stumbo: 43:09

We hope pure desire could be that outlet for a lot of men and women, because groups is really what we're all about. We have about 1,200 churches around the country that have a form of Pure Desire groups in them, so there might be a local church around you or maybe your church has one. We found even churches that have groups.

Chris Grainger: 43:26

don't always know how to talk about them or publicize them very well, I'm not sure if I want to go sign up for the Pure Desire group, right, how does that work?

Nick Stumbo: 43:34

Yeah, and we try to train and equip churches like what's the right way to talk about this? So that people don't have to raise their hand or fill out the welcome card with their spouse sitting next to them saying, why are you filling that out? But that's another story. So you could look on our website. We have a group finder that shows a map of the country and where all these churches are located, and then we also have online groups with trained facilitators. That would be an opportunity to join an online group. Or we encourage people all the time. You could start a group.

Nick Stumbo: 44:04

Our resources are really intended to be the expert and you're just facilitating a group. You're not the leader, because you're perfect and have it all figured out. You're going through the group, even if you facilitate or lead it. You're going through the group for you, and so you could get a copy of our workbook for men, seven Pillars of Freedom. Or we also have groups for women and their sexuality issues called Unraveled, and then for spouses who are on the betrayal side, a workbook called Betrayal and Beyond, and going through that group experience that is really going to take you into a deep dive into your healing. So not just the accountability of you know, did you struggle this week? Right, but really looking at a lot of those deeper questions of why do I struggle, why do I go back to this, what's my pattern and what needs to change.

Nick Stumbo: 44:46

And a thing that surprises a lot of people is our groups are typically eight or 10 months long, and sometimes people say, like man, why does it take so long? It takes forever. Well, we've seen that lasting brain change is not a quick fix. You might be able to change the behavior within the first month or two, but I always refer to it. That's kind of like wet cement at that point and if you just think, hey, I've had a couple of good months, I'm good to go, and you abandon group and you don't have community in your life and you're not using these tools, your brain will morph back to these patterns of acting out sexually, like it's been trained to do for many of us for 20, 30, 40 years. And so the length of group gives your brain and your heart and your soul enough time to heal and then sustain that change in a way that we really believe can be lasting and create a lifetime of freedom, not just a couple of good months. What's the what's?

Chris Grainger: 45:40

the. You know, if you were designing the, the, the ideal group size. Is that three to five people? Is that 10 people? I'm just giving us a feel, for you know what the ideal groups look like, look like those dynamics maybe, as well as length of meetings. Just kind of really get into some of the nuts and bolts here to give the guys what they could expect. Walking into that.

Nick Stumbo: 46:01

Sure, the typical group meets for about two hours, and I remember when my counselor told me initially I needed to join this group and it was going to be two hours every week.

Nick Stumbo: 46:09

And I'm like what, what on earth, could possibly take so long? Because my my experience with this was go into a room, ask other guys, did you struggle this week? And then pray for one another. Right, and I didn't know that there was actually curriculum, there were resources and tools that we were going to walk through. So in a pure desire group, you typically spend the first 30 to 40 minutes doing a check-in, typically spend the first 30 to 40 minutes doing a check-in, and that check-in involves a very specific process called the FASTER scale that helps you identify the pattern that you're on. So FASTER is an acronym for and this will just give people a window into groups that might be helpful.

Nick Stumbo: 46:46

Faster is an acronym for forgiving priorities that leads to anxiety that causes us to speed up. That's the S, and then we become ticked off and then we live in exhausted, and if we're in exhausted long enough, we will relapse. So that's FASTER. And so every week, even if you didn't relapse, you're somewhere. You've been somewhere on that scale, right, and you're starting to identify what are the things that are driving my life emotionally, what are the undealt with temptations that are lingering in the back of my mind, and as I learned to identify my pattern and share honestly where I'm at on my faster scale. It gives me things to work on long before I'm in relapse that create that pattern of change. So the check-in is more than just yes, no, did you have a bad week? It's like let's talk about what actually happened in our week. But it's also not just people shooting the breeze and telling you random stories that have nothing to do with their recovery. It's very structured to create insights into your own story and, as you hear other people share from their stories, you're going to have light bulbs, go on and go, wow, I see something I'm doing now. So typically 30, 40 minutes of check-in and then for an hour they're going to go through a lesson in the workbook that's going to walk you through some principle of recovery, along with your response to what you're learning, and then you share those answers with the group and then at the end of group you're going to make a weekly commitment to change. And this is so powerful because it takes your recovery.

Nick Stumbo: 48:10

You know most of us have just said I never want to look at pornography again, and that's a wonderful goal. But if you're asked like, how are you going to do that, yeah Well, I'm just not going to do it. That's right. That's not actually a plan. That's a great sentiment, but that's not actually a plan.

Nick Stumbo: 48:26

So we break it down to say, this week, what is the most important thing you need to do to walk in sobriety? Right, and that might be this week. It might be something relationally that I need to do with my wife. It might be something physically that I need to do to get more sleep or exercise or have better diet choices. It might be something I need to do mentally to learn to grow. It might need to be something emotionally that I face a difficulty in my life and quit avoiding it and I make that commitment to my group. And then accountability becomes very meaningful, because I'm not just having general accountability of did I relapse or not, but I'm being accountable to that commitment I made for that week.

Nick Stumbo: 49:05

And what we find is when people start to build up weeks where they're successful in their plan of change, that leads to a lifetime of freedom and sobriety. And so that's a picture of the two-hour group meeting. Typically it's five people, up to eight, no more than eight, because if it's more than eight people you don't have time for everyone to share, and that's one of our principles, that you don't just come to group and observe. We're not like an AA meeting where you can just come and kind of listen and share briefly Like it's intended that every person goes through their work, shares their answer and grows together.

Nick Stumbo: 49:37

So if you get any bigger than eight, there's just not time in the meeting for everyone to share what they need to share. But yeah, that's kind of the goal and the structure and we have a lot more on our website about groups and best practices. And you know, sometimes people have said, well, I tried a pure desire group and it wasn't effective for me, and we'll ask a couple of questions about their group and find out that, well, they didn't really use the lessons or they didn't require people to do homework or they didn't make people commit to coming every week. And we'll say, well, you may have done a group that was under pure desire's name, but that wasn really a Pure Desire group, because there are some principles that are really important for effectiveness and for group health.

Chris Grainger: 50:16

I am assuming these groups are. You have your men's groups, you have your women's groups. We're not mixing that right.

Nick Stumbo: 50:22

Correct Always single gender Right, right, love it, love it.

Chris Grainger: 50:26

Well, it's great stuff there, guys. We'll take our last break with Nick and we'll be right back. I find it helps me to have a guide at times when I'm reading and studying the Bible. One way that helps me is by using devotionals to guide not only what I read, but insights into the scriptures themselves. So we were blessed to become an author on the YouVersion Bible app. So we were blessed to become an author on the YouVersion Bible app, and we saw an immediate opportunity to help others with devotionals around the areas that we spend the most time talking about at the Lion Within Us.

Chris Grainger: 51:00

So if you enjoy the show, you may enjoy these devos as well. We have some guys that are using them as part of their small groups as well, as they're a great way to get conversations going. So, to see the ones that we've created, head over to thelionwithinus to learn more. So that's thelionwithinus to get started with your own men's devotional today. So, nick, I mean, as you've built some of these things out, there sounds like you have a lot of hope for leaders, pastors, church leaders, whoever may be in those types of positions. You know what would be your encouragement to them, who if they're feeling pretty unequipped right now. What would be your encouragement for them to take the step forward, to put something like this in place for the people they're trying to lead?

Nick Stumbo: 51:51

Chris, I think you used a key word right there unequipped and that, as we've been talking about, is the reality that I think a lot of leaders, pastors and even parents feel it's like I'm just not equipped in this area and it feels too big or it feels too messy and so we just push it away. And one of the messages I want to give people is you can get equipped in this area, For example, and there are a lot of ways out there but we have an introductory video course called Sexual Integrity 101. So it's the 101, the introductory course for sexual integrity. It's an eight-week video series to try and help people understand this whole area and to get new insights and learn about the brain and the heart and how they connect and how all of it impacts our relationship with God and other people, and we have it as a streaming video. It's online. You can order it on DVD, but that's one example of a way that you could be equipped listening to our podcast and other groups out there that really are aimed at educating men and women in the church on what's happening in this area of sexuality, Because when we get a little bit of equipping the first step it might help us see I need to do some work in my own story, and that's another starting place for so many parents, leaders, pastors is they need to do some of their own work, and part of the reason they'll see that they've pushed it away is because they've never addressed their own story of sexual brokenness.

Nick Stumbo: 53:16

And that's why, at Pure Desire, we have groups for pastors. We routinely encourage a pastor or leader find a way to address this in your own life Because, like in my story, if you haven't addressed, once you've addressed your own story, your freedom to help other people just grows exponentially. Sure and thankfully, the reality is this isn't everybody's story. So if it's not your story, that's where being equipped, having some tools in mind, a way of speaking about this, Like I mentioned earlier, just feeling confident that I can bring up the conversation, we can talk about it and say this is safe to talk about, Like God is not afraid of our sexuality.

Nick Stumbo: 53:54

God is not embarrassed about our sexuality, so we shouldn't be either. We should realize we can bring this to him and to one another in a way that we all learn and grow together. And when we create that kind of safe culture, a culture where people can raise a hand and say I need help and people go man, that's awesome, We've got a way to help you, here's a group for you. That's when we can really see a church change, a family change, a couple change. So it's getting equipped to that point where we feel like, yeah, I kind of understand what's going on here and I can now be part of the solution, rather than just staying in silence. Because if we stay in silence, whether we intend to be or not, we really are part of the problem.

Chris Grainger: 54:33

Amen to that. So you said something again. You're giving me lots of openings here, Nick, so I got to take them when you give them to me. So the dad out there who's listening because you mentioned something about you know education programs let's say there's a dad listening and he finds out his teenager is looking at pornography, how would you equip that man to lead his family and to help his teenagers? Well, is it something with pure desire? Is it something they could do together? Give us some insight there on what, some steps that potentially he could take moving forward.

Nick Stumbo: 55:10

Certainly pure desire, and other ministries have tools and we have ways we can help equip that dad. But I would want to start with him just thinking about what is his posture towards his teenage son, because too many of us, inadvertently or maybe intentionally, have taken a posture of punishment or of judgment or of shame. Why this is so wrong? What were you thinking? I can't believe you did that. I'm taking away your phone and it may be appropriate to create some boundaries. It may be appropriate to say this is wrong, but I want to encourage a dad to think about a posture of help or support or advocate. And so some of those first words whether we've caught our son or they've come to us it and so some of those first words whether we've caught our son or they've come to us, those first words need to be affirming and to say I'm here to be with you in this. So we might say to our son I am so grateful that this is in the light, I'm so thankful for the opportunity to talk about this, because I know when this is in the dark, when it's a secret, it can be so destructive and I want you to know I am here to help you in this area because I know what it's like to struggle. I'm a man too. I've had these thoughts and feelings and I want to be a part of helping you rise above this. And so let's talk about what's a strategy that we could work on together to help you avoid some of the dangers that are out there with pornography and what's on the internet. Do you see how, even in my language now, I've postured myself to be on my kid's side, and I think that's so key because, like I shared in my story and like most listeners can probably relate, when we struggle, we fear rejection, punishment, people are going to be ashamed of us. That's the shame message. So keep in mind that your teenager is probably already bringing into the conversation that level of fear and a shame message, even if they haven't verbalized it yet, they're feeling this sense of oh no, what's going to happen? And if a parent can come alongside and say I'm so proud of you for facing this with me, I'm so glad that we get to talk, because I never got to do that when I was a teen and I think it was just so hard to do this on my own. I want to be here for you, and it just starts to relieve some of that fear and secrecy. And now they see dad and or mom and dad as that safe place to go with their questions, with their struggles, because they know they're not going to be rejected, they're going to be helped. And I think I honestly believe this that God has put it in your kid's heart to want your help, even if they don't ask for it, even if they don't seem like it. You know, even if when you bring it up they're like oh, dad, you know, or they get embarrassed Like I still believe, there's something in them that actually deeply wants you to enter into this with them and be their advocate and be their support. And so if we can take that role, I just think that changes the whole story. And then, yes, get equipped.

Nick Stumbo: 58:02

You know we just released at Pure Desire Ministries a parent training course. For this very reason, we're trying to equip parents to have healthy conversations and create a healthy culture with their kids around this topic of sex. And so go through a parent training course, learn about the brain, learn what's out there on social media and what it's doing to our kids, so that you feel you have some equipping in those conversations. But I think that the main starting point is just that. It's where do you start? Because if you start with that posture of control, shame, condemning punishment, like it's just going to shut down conversation and it's always going to be one-sided right, it's going to be you telling them what to do versus. We want this to be a two-way conversation of support, of honesty and accountability.

Chris Grainger: 58:47

That's right, and I'm so glad you mentioned the course because my follow-up was going to be around. How can we be proactive? Maybe we have kids and they haven't reached that age and they haven't been exposed to it. So what should we be doing as parents, as dads, in particular daughters and sons to be proactive there? So it sounds like this initial course will be your suggested course, you know, initial action that we could take.

Nick Stumbo: 59:12

Absolutely. It'd be a great tool. It's on our website, it's all streaming, so you don't have to have a DVD or anything. You just watch at your own pace. A couple on our team wrote a book how to Talk with your Kids About Sex and they're the main presenters. And then we interview a number of industry experts, counselors, people working in similar ministries just to equip parents. And one other thing I would add with this, because I think we've also been handed a paradigm in the church that is the heart behind it was right, but the implementation has actually not been helpful. And it's the idea that when my kid is 11, 12, 13 years old, I'm going to take them away on a trip and we're going to have, like this, deep, honest talk about sexuality, which is great, and I've done that with my boys. But I would say, if that's the starting point, we've waited far too long because, really all through the ages of our kids' lives.

Nick Stumbo: 1:00:04

We want to be starting these conversations so that by the time they're 11, 12, 13, it's not awkward because they've been talking about their body parts, They've been talking about things they've seen on TV with mom and dad for years, and it's just a normal part of parenting. And so I try to tell a dad if you've got a son who's four or five, six years old, you should start asking questions about hey, are there any things kids at school have been joking about that you don't understand? Are there any videos on YouTube that have come up that were surprising? You know, making sure you're calling your body parts what they are and identifying oh, dad is a boy too and I have the same boy parts as you. So just creating around the whole topic of human sexuality that this is something dad and I talk about. And then, when they're 11, 12, 13 and you want to go deeper, you've got the context for it. But I share that because that was also my only experience with my dad was at 12 years, 11 years old. We had the birds and the bees talk and it was. I think he did a great job.

Nick Stumbo: 1:01:05

Honestly, my dad had a great talk with me, but that's the only time I ever remember talking about sex with my dad, Right, and I tell you, at 13 and 14 and 15 and 16, I needed a dad that would keep coming back and saying how are you doing? How can I help? Do you have any questions? Is there anything happening where I could pray for you, where I could support you? But we just didn't have that in our relationship. And my dad and I have a great relationship now and we've talked about all of that.

Nick Stumbo: 1:01:32

And he said to me Nick, I just didn't have a context how to do that. My dad never did that with me. I just hoped you were making good choices and I was there if you needed anything. And I think a lot of dads feel that like, well, I'll do that one talk, but other than that I don't really know what to do. And I just try to encourage dads man, walk into the room, ask the question, be curious, say how can I help, and even if in the moment your kid, just like I said, goes, oh, dad, or they think it's stupid, that moment meant something and they're paying attention and they're listening. And then, when something does come up, they are far more likely to come to you and say hey, dad, something did come up. Can I ask you about this? Because you've been creating that context. So don't wait for that one weekend and think you're going to solve all your kids' problems on some wilderness experience if you don't integrate this conversation all throughout their growing up years.

Chris Grainger: 1:02:28

And Nick. This has been tremendous, my friend. Before we wrap up, we always do a lightning round at the Lion Within Us, where we kind of just have a little bit of fun towards the end of the episode. This has been a heavy topic, so maybe we can end on a lighter note.

Nick Stumbo: 1:02:41

If you want to play, we'll jump right into it.

Chris Grainger: 1:02:42

Okay, all right. So give us to play, we'll jump right into it. Okay, all right. So give us a habit, something that you enjoy doing for fun.

Nick Stumbo: 1:02:50

I am a runner. It is the time I get out of the house and I'm alone. No one can find me. I don't take my phone, I don't listen to music, I just clear my head and I run 30, 40 miles a week.

Chris Grainger: 1:03:01

Oh, my gracious. So how long for a typical run in a day Is it? Is it five Ks, 10 Ks? What do you?

Nick Stumbo: 1:03:06

do? Yeah, I usually do five to eight miles and then go a little longer on a weekend run.

Chris Grainger: 1:03:11

Oh, my gracious, good for you. I'm a runner too, but I'm not going eight miles during a week. That's, that's, that's. That takes me a little while, but that's, it's good to clear your head, right, yeah? So, after all that running, what's your meal?

Nick Stumbo: 1:03:27

What's your go-to favorite food, Nick? I mean, my favorite food is probably fried chicken, but right after a run, fried chicken doesn't hit the stomach very well. After a run, I will often make myself like omelets, scrambled eggs. I love getting creative with omelets. So I'd probably say omelet making is one of my specialties All right, all right, all right Now.

Chris Grainger: 1:03:45

you've already mentioned the Minnesota Twins. That's your team. Any other sports teams that you're following?

Nick Stumbo: 1:03:51

I've lived in the Pacific Northwest for 22 years now, so the Seattle Seahawks have been probably my football team that I follow, okay, and then, you know, very interestingly, one of my teenage daughters got into hockey. You know, very interestingly, one of my teenage daughters got into hockey. And I'll tell you, as a kid I hated hockey because ESPN would have all these hockey highlights and I just wanted to see baseball highlights. Like you know, get past the stupid hockey. But now my daughter's a hockey fan and so we've become big Seattle Kraken fans.

Chris Grainger: 1:04:18

You know they're an expansion team.

Nick Stumbo: 1:04:25

They've only had a team for, I think, four years now, but we enjoy sitting down. Yeah, I mean it's, it's great that I can sit with my teenage daughter and watch a hockey game, and we have a lot of fun doing that that's really cool.

Chris Grainger: 1:04:31

That's really cool. How about if you, if you could have a superpower, Nick, like any superpower out there? Which one would you pick, and why?

Nick Stumbo: 1:04:43

I'll go something light. If I had a superpower, it would be always be able being able to find lost things, because I tell you I hate it when I lose something and I can't remember where I put it, or even my um. My wife and I have an ongoing joke that my life's greatest accomplishment is that after 25 years of marriage I still have my wedding wedding ring, because I take it off a lot for exercise, you know, to wash dishes, and there've been months at a time like where is my wedding ring, and I've always found it eventually. But I'd love the superpower to just like something's lost. I know exactly where it is and, um, it would relieve a lot of mental strain in my life. That's pretty good.

Chris Grainger: 1:05:21

What's your all-time favorite things? That's it all-time favorite movie. What's your go-to?

Nick Stumbo: 1:05:29

uh, boy, I'd probably say the lord of the rings trilogy is still at the top. Um big jr r tolkien fan, you know read the book several times as a kid and so I thought those movies captured the spirit of the book really well and I mean you gotta have a. I got the extended edition DVDs right so you got to have like four hours to watch one, but yeah, that's probably still my go-to Nice nice.

Chris Grainger: 1:05:53

A couple kind of theological questions when you think about God and you don't have to go very deep here. What's your favorite thing, just like what's your favorite thing about God?

Nick Stumbo: 1:06:04

More and more in this season of my life and I've got four kids. They're all teenagers now, or actually my oldest is 20. I think the image of God is a loving Heavenly Father and Jesus saying you know if you, as parents, know how to give your kids good gifts and I can relate to that right Like I want the best for my kids and even if they're messing up or make it like my heart is so for them, and when I think that we have a good, loving Heavenly Father, that, as Jesus says, is like if you know how to give good gifts.

Nick Stumbo: 1:06:33

Don't you think your Heavenly Father knows what you need? You know and can give you the Holy Spirit? And I need to remember that and get through some of my maybe childhood, fears of God being the judge and the king and the rule and all those things are true, but if we miss his father heart for us, I think we really lose an aspect of God that is so vital.

Chris Grainger: 1:06:53

Amen to that, bro. Amen, and we'll flip it. What's your least favorite thing about the evil one?

Nick Stumbo: 1:07:01

Just the way we've talked about a couple of them, just the way he lies to us and makes us think we're the only one. Because, as I sit with groups with men and I tell you what breaks my heart is when a man will say I believe God, I confess my sin, I asked him to set me free and I kept struggling and I thought the problem's not with God, the problem must be with me, and maybe I'm not even saved. To have men say that because of their sexual struggle, maybe they're not saved, I'm like what a lie from the enemy to try to divide us from others and even from God and think we're alone and rejected because of our sin. Because that's the exact opposite message of the cross, right, like the message of the cross is you're not alone in your sin, I've paid the price, you are mine, and the enemy tries to say yeah, but not you. You know what you've done. And if other people knew what you've done, not you and man. That lie is just wrecking men and women, especially in this area of sexuality.

Chris Grainger: 1:07:58

A hundred percent, A hundred percent. So, Nick, as we wrap up, what's the one thing you know?

Nick Stumbo: 1:08:04

final message that you hope the listeners remember the most from our conversation today One of the themes God has just put on my heart and I say at the end of our podcast I say you are not alone, and I know that can sound a little trite, but to me there's a depth, as I've just mentioned the lies we listen to, the parts of our story we feel particular shame about. We feel so alone and think if others knew I wouldn't have friends, I wouldn't have a family, I wouldn't be married. And I think we need to hear one another say you are not alone, I'm with you, I'm not going to leave you. It's to me the most powerful thing that we know about Jesus that I will never leave you nor forsake you.

Nick Stumbo: 1:08:47

You're not alone, because when we believe we're alone, it drives us into so much of our sinful behaviors. So when we believe that we're accepted, we're wanted, that others are around us, it's a game changer, especially in this area. So no matter what you've done, no matter where you've been, what lie you've held on to my friend, I can tell you you are not alone. And so don't stay alone, because coming out of that isolation is a choice. We have to be willing to step into community and face that part of us that we've been holding secret. But if we believe we'll be loved and accepted when we get there, maybe it will give us the courage to come out of that isolation.

Chris Grainger: 1:09:27

Amen to that, nick Amen. So where do you want to send the listeners to connect with you, the wonderful things you're doing at Pure Desire to get copies of your book, things like that. So give a good shout out here where you want to point the listeners at today.

Nick Stumbo: 1:09:42

You can find everything at puredesireorg. That's our website. You can find all our books and resources are there on our web store our weekly podcast and blog and many of the tools I've been talking about the groups, the parent training course, sexual integrity 101 video course it's all there at puredesireorg. We also have a growing YouTube video channel that all of our podcasts and videos are on there, and so I would encourage people to follow us there, because new content comes out every week and our goal is just to create a community that knows, hey, it's safe to talk about this, and if you join our YouTube community, then maybe you'll be able to take some of those same messages back into your community or your family or your church and have better conversations there.

Chris Grainger: 1:10:25

Amen, amen. Well, nick, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for being so open and transparent. Really enjoyed it, learned a lot. And now, guys, be sure to go check out puredesireorg. We'll have that link in the show notes. So, nick, thank you so much again, sir.

Nick Stumbo: 1:10:39

Thank you, Chris. I appreciate you having me on.

Chris Grainger: 1:10:44

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Chris Grainger: 1:12:15

Your journey begins here. This is thelinewithdenus, and I'll see you inside the den. All right, guys, I told you that was going to be a good one. So, so thankful for Nick for coming on the show. The question of the week this week is really there's usually something, and I want you to think about this. What is that one thing that you're clinging on to that God's asking you to surrender, and we all got it Now. It may be pornography, or it may be chocolate peanut M&Ms Maybe I'm speaking about myself here.

Chris Grainger: 1:12:50

Anyway but seriously, there's something. There's something that we all have that we're clinging on to, that we're playing with in the dark, that we don't want no one to know about. We feel like we can suppress it, but you know what, if we keep playing with stuff in the dark, satan's going to kick our butt. He just is. So, whatever that thing is, if you need help, I encourage you to reach out, check out our Lion Within Us community, where you can be around fellow Christians, brothers in Christ, to have these types of conversations. This is a pretty regular occurrence within the Lion.

Chris Grainger: 1:13:21

I can tell you that right now Gods are bringing the issues that they're struggling with, and it's not just to say anymore, just to drop a bag of dirty laundry off. No, we want to help you unpack it together, we want to help you think through it. We're going to bring that accountability to your situation that you desperately need, and we do this without condemnation, because we believe that with Christ man, we can overcome anything, especially anything that evil has stolen us our way. So if you need help, if you need assistance, the lionwithinus, click on the community button to get started today. I hope to see you there. All right, so give us a rating and review, fellas, that helps for sure.

Chris Grainger: 1:14:05

Maybe you want to come on board and be part of our community. Check out our free resources, our weekly roar, our assessment, our Christian leadership assessment. We have so many cool ways that we're serving, that we're helping, that we are equipping you to do the works God's called you to do. So I want you to check that stuff out at the lion withinus. Okay, so come back on Friday. We'll have a couple of good dad jokes for you, some good tips, as we always do, to equip you to do the work that guys calling you to do so. Anyway, if this resonated well, definitely share it with someone else. Share it with your men's group. Maybe you don't want to send this to an individual, but if you have a group text message going on with a bunch of dudes, drop this one in there. Drop it in there and just say hey, bro. Don't know if any of you guys struggle with this, but this conversation was real and just leave it at that and somebody may reach out.

Chris Grainger: 1:14:59

They may not, but if you need support, thelionwithinus, all right. Have a great day, guys. We'll see you on Friday. Just keep leaning in and moving forward and remember to unleash the lion within.