Christian Men Cultivating Enduring Friendships

Chris Grainger 1:15

Welcome to the Lion Within Us , a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders God intends you to be . I'm your host , chris Granger . Let's jump in . All right , guys , it's your meat episode and I'm excited to be here with you . This week's a special week , really pumped up for the guests that you guys are getting ready to listen to . So let's get right into it .

Chris Grainger 1:31

Scripture of the week this week is in the book of Philemon , verse 15 through 17 . There's three verses . It says Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was for you might have him back forever , no longer as a slave , but , better than a slave , as a dear brother . He is very dear to me , but even dearer to you , both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord . So if you consider me a partner , welcome him , as you would welcome me . So , guys , go back and listen to the spiritual kickoff episode . We really unpack that scripture at length to give you an idea of what friendship , what does that reconciliation , rather , what does that look like in your life and how we need to be cultivating that . So talk about that . Edit so to talk about the whole idea of friendship , we brought in Pastor Brian Loretz and I'll tell you what .

Chris Grainger 2:26

I had an opportunity to hear Pastor Brian at a men's conference at the Summit Church where he's a teaching pastor there Back in it was probably January or February , I'm fuzzy on the dates , but I just remember out of the four speakers , in my opinion he blew them all out to water . Blew them out to water with his teachings Unbelievable . He even talked about some things in this conversation from that event where he was talking about the way we need to look at our calendars and making sure that they're priority driven and not task driven . I've even used that in other episodes as well before I gave Pastor Brian or at least I tried to give Pastor Brian all the credit for that , but just a phenomenal conversation . He's an award-winning author eight books . He spent the bulk of his ministry fellas actually out there serving and trying to resource , help resources with the multi-ethnic churches . So he co-founded the Fellowship Memphis in 2003 . He's the president of that movement out there and he's really just doing some incredible things . He's been a guest speaker at Catalyst and the Global Leadership Summit . He serves on the board at the Biola University . He's a regular visiting professor at Grimke Seminary . He is also the vice president of Regents for the SIN Network man and he's also married . He's the husband of Kilwury . He has a father of three sons Quentin , miles and Jaden .

Chris Grainger 3:45

So just a busy , busy guy . Lots of fun , lots of energy , lots of wisdom , just discernment and insight when you can get an opportunity to sit down with Pastor Brian . So this is a little bit of a shorter episode , guys . He had a time restraint , but we got as much packed in as we possibly could during the time we had together and hopefully , if you're struggling with friendship out there or just wanting to think about what those true friendships look like in your life , he's given some great tips , some great ideas that maybe will serve you well along your journey , as well as the idea of giving yourself some grace along the path . So enjoy this conversation with Pastor Brian Loretz . Well , pastor Brian , welcome to the Lion Within Us . How are you doing today ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 4:30

Chris , I'm doing great and great to be on the show with you .

Chris Grainger 4:35

Absolutely . I was telling you before we started that I got to hear you in person at the event earlier this year the summit and you were by far my favorite speaker , but most impressed that you walked up those steps , never lost rhythm didn't fall down . I was like I was praying for you . I'm like that doesn't look very wide stepped that you're playing with there .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 4:57

Oh man , Well , look , if you paid attention , I didn't go all the way up top . I had faith , but I didn't have that much faith . So , yes , yes .

Chris Grainger 5:08

Well , that was incredible . I loved it . I definitely love it . Anytime the podcast comes out where I hear you preaching for that week , it's always a treat . So time the podcast comes out where I hear you preaching for that week , it's always a treat , so excited to have you here with us , for sure .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 5:25

And maybe tell us something fun about you that not many people know about Pastor Brian . Oh , something fun about me that most people don't know Gosh , I'm terrified of roller coasters and I married a wife who can't get enough of them , really , yeah , what always happens is she rides the roller coasters either by herself or with one of our sons , while I hold her purse and wait for her to finish the ride . So thankfully , I've never had someone recognize me as I'm holding her purse waiting for her to finish the roller coaster ride . But that's probably the most fun , embarrassing thing I can come up with , right now , there you go .

Chris Grainger 6:06

Is it the heights that you're afraid of ? It's the heights . It's the heights For sure .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 6:11

I can do the lutes all day long . The speed I'm fine with it's the all of them start out by going up real slow , dramatic effect . They pause and then it just whips you down . Man , I would , yeah , yeah , I don't know what I do , yeah , but yeah , that's not , that's not for me , man at all .

Chris Grainger 6:32

We're cut from the same cloth so I don't do those . But uh , you know those . But I'll be right there with you holding a purse or something .

Chris Grainger 6:37

So there you go oh man At the conference they were giving away . I was able to get a copy of your Enduring Friendship book and I absolutely loved it and reached out . I even saw you had John Mark Comer right to forward and I just actually unpacked his elimination of hurry this past weekend at a church retreat that I led . So I just I loved it . I wanted to make just curious what inspired you to write this enduring friendship .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 7:08

You know it's . You know , I think one part of it is I forget which writer said it , but there was a writer who said I write to figure out what I think about a subject , and that's very much true . So you know , if you read the book the first illustration , when I get to talking about my wedding and my groomsmen , what I really wanted to do there is to pluck myself off of any pedestal that in some way shape or form . I'm the expert on how to have just the best friendships because I've made a lot of fumbles in my life . So I think that opening illustration will kind of tell you what I mean when I'm just like man . I'm very much in process on this and trying to figure it out . However , what I mean when I'm just like man , I'm very much in process on this and trying to figure it out .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 7:58

However , I have lived enough in life . I would say I'm the typical type A personality male in that in my 20s and 30s I valued productivity way more than people and starting in my early 40s , there was a shift that was taking place because I had accomplished all of these things but looked around and didn't really have hardly anyone to actually enjoy them with no real substantive relationships in my life , and I decided to make a pivot , really on my 40th birthday , that if God gave me grace to live another 40 years , I wanted to scale , as David Brooks calls this second mountain , which is just all about relationships and so I've learned a couple of things in the last decade plus that I just wanted to share as a way of encouragement , both from what went right and what wrong .

Chris Grainger 9:00

Amen to this , I mean that pivot at age 40 . I'm curious what's your , what's your target number ? How many of these enduring friendships do you think you have right now ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 9:06

well , see that that's the thing you know . Um , I mean any . Any sociology study would tell you that , in the truest sense of the word , we only have capacity for about three to no more than five thick friendships , right ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 9:25

I'm not just talking about the acquaintances or the casual person , I'm just talking someone you really lock arms with . We don't have human capacity for more than three or five of those . Now , of course there's an outer ring . So even if you look at Jesus , when Jesus goes into the Garden of Gethsemane , judas has already left , so he's got 11 with them and he's already said I call you friends , so they had friendship . But then when he goes into the garden he leaves eight of the 11 , and he only takes Peter , james and John with him and it says he began to be sorrowful Right .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 10:00

So , Peter , james and John saw a side of Jesus in that moment that the other eight didn't , so you can have an outer ring of people that there's genuine relationship with . I'm talking about your core . I probably have about five in my core .

Chris Grainger 10:20

Differentiate that then , if you don't mind . When you say the core , I'm thinking for the guys who are listening , who are trying to do a litmus test of their buddies right now . What defines you being in that core ? How do you check for that ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 10:35

What know what's interesting . I think this is a helpful analogy In antiquity . So if I took you to the story of Samson , when Samson gets married , one of the things that happened in antiquity weddings were a hot spot to get robbed . Okay . So I mean , if you just think about it , you got this big party out in the middle of nowhere and you know it was just screaming rob me . And so what you would always have at weddings in antiquity are the groomsmen . They would come packing , they would have these little daggers with them with them . And so the picture is I don't know if you've ever seen a Jewish wedding , but it's always this festive , loud occasion . So you have groomsmen who are dancing with you , celebrating with you and , at the same time , ready to kill for you , and so I think that's a picture of friendship . It's the person that I can go to and this is going to sound so simple , but it's not . I've had to find out the hard way . It's the person I can go to and when I'm on life's mountaintops , when things are going really well , and I can share it with them , knowing that they are going to rejoice with me as I'm rejoicing and I don't have to worry about competition

Maintaining Healthy Male Friendships

Dr. Bryan Loritts 12:00

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Dr. Bryan Loritts 12:01

Dennis Rainey says if you put two men next to each other , our natural default is to compete right ? So in my core there are people who are just celebrating with me . I'm not worried about jealousy . I'm not worried about jealousy , I'm not worried about envy . But on the other hand , these are also people who look .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 12:20

You know if I've got a struggle ? My wife knows that I tell her 98% of things . She knows that there's 2% that she knows that I don't tell her , which has to do with some of my struggles . And I don't mind being forthright here . My particular struggle is I have to be really vigilant about protecting myself from doing anything appropriate with the opposite sex . And I have a group of men around me in my core that when I feel like I'm drifting , when I feel like there's some sin , I need to confess . Those are the ones that I call . Those are the ones that I call . They'll receive me with grace , but they won't pat me on the back and endorse my behavior . They'll challenge me at the same time . So that's why I feel safe . I guess my core is I feel safe . I guess my core is people I feel safe to celebrate with , I feel safe to confess with . That's my core .

Chris Grainger 13:24

Hey , man , because you have to have that level of transparency . You know and feel that safe word . I think that is the perfect word for it as well . So I mean , I think that's that was a great way to put it . I absolutely loved how you you shared that and you got five . That's , that's amazing . There , and you in this book , you actually focused on the book of Philemon . I'm just curious , why ? Why that ? To illustrate so many points in which you did phenomenal job , by the way . I'm just curious why you went there .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 13:51

Yeah , you know , I think that's a great question . I think that's , in some regards , I think that would probably be a common question . It's kind of a question that I had .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 14:02

I did a three-part series on it at the Summit Church a couple years ago . And there are some sermons . I think the average pastor will tell you there are probably a few sermons throughout the course of a year that you just really feel like huh . I think this resonated at a deeper level than what I was anticipating and the original approach that I took from Philemon . It's all about reconciliation , right ? So you have the slave , onesimus , who leaves his owner , philemon , which we can understand .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 14:28

In the process of leaving , he steals from Philemon , which you know the average slave would do , because they haven't been saving money . And how in the world am I going to make it ? Life on the outside is going to be rough . He goes to Rome . I think he goes to Rome actively seeking out Paul , because the church at Colossae , which Paul had a hand in establishing , meets in the home of Philemon Excuse me , yeah , in the home of Philemon . And so Onesimus would have heard of Paul . Goes to Rome . Paul leads him to faith in Christ .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 15:02

Here's Onesimus' story how he'd stolen from Philemon and pretty much tells him you need to go back and make that right . And then he writes the letter to Philemon exhorting Philemon to show grace . And here's the key line in Philemon is so I want you to take him back . Paul says no longer as a slave . I want you to take him back as more than a slave , I want you to take him back as a brother . Right , these are very startling words , and so , in that sense , to take him back as a brother . It's really a book about friendship . It's a little about reconciliation , but if you think reconciliation is going back to the way things were , that's not Philemon . He's not saying I want you to restore the master-slave dynamic . I'm envisioning something greater , I'm envisioning friendship , and so I think that's the point of the book . And so out of that we're able to extract , I think , some universal , transferable principles on how to have healthy friendships .

Chris Grainger 16:00

Amen , and I'd love to unpack some of that , because I feel like at the Lion Within Us , we have a community , pastor Brian , and it's bringing a lot of guys together and so many of them are feeling isolated and alone . And we live in this world now , where we have these smartphones , we're connected to more people than ever , but yet we have so few true friendships out there , and I just feel like that's an area . I'd love to get your insights , your wisdom , your discernment on that , for how can we maintain and cultivate those healthy friendships that you're really pointing us to right here ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 16:32

Yeah . So you bring up technology and I took a couple of passing swipes at it in the book . Of course , we would all say technology . I think most of us would say technology is not bad in and of itself . I think there's some beautiful things about technology . I think there's some very negative things about technology . It's all about how you use and steward it .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 16:55

I think the concerning thing about technology and its implications on how we deal with friendship is , I feel like technology , and especially social media atrophies our resilience muscles . Social media I can construct this world where everybody agrees with me , right ? And if you ever comment on something is all about two centers going on a journey with one another . Which means , Chris , if you and I are walking down the road of friendship together , at some point I will inevitably disappoint you and at some point you will inevitably disappoint me . And if my reflex reaction every single time is to just block people , then I'm not going to have the resilience needed to be a truth teller , to extend grace , I'm not going to have the resilience needed to work through the issues , and I think that's why there has been a softening of our current generation and culture . There is this hypersensitivity that we are experiencing that . I honestly think that social media has directly impacted .

Chris Grainger 18:34

Absolutely Everybody . The least little thing can set anyone off nowadays , and you're right . The negativity . We can just block that , we can isolate that . And you've got to remember too , on the social media we're seeing a highlight reel versus the real life , and I feel like that can really throw us all from understanding what these true friendships are all about .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 18:55

Yes , absolutely .

Chris Grainger 18:57

Awesome , awesome . Well , look guys , we'll take our first break . We'll be right back with Pastor Brian . If you're a man who's looking for greater spiritual guidance into how to become a better leader , finding resources that you can trust and then implement can be daunting For me personally . I thought it was a lost cause and I decided to take the action , knowing that I wasn't alone .

Chris Grainger 19:20

It was because of this wide gap that we created our line within this community , and the areas that we're helping Christian men grow are incredible . For instance , we've built ways for guys to lean in and grow through fun events like our daily spiritual kickoff , where you get that much needed boost directly from God's word , our Bible studies that always focus on how to discern and apply what we learn , and even our amazing form , where you can speak your mind without fear of getting shut down or judged by the extreme rules of modern day social media . On top of all that , we know that many men won't help overcoming issues and becoming stronger in many different areas . That's why we created several mastermind groups , where the iron truly sharpens iron . Our community is about having a growth mindset , accountability , intentionality and transparency . In other words , just leave fake you at home and come to community , just as you are .

Chris Grainger 20:16

I fully believe what we feel . I see the impact it's making on men right now and I would love to have you check it out . So start your very own 30-day free trial today to see how we can help you be a better leader . So if you're ready to take that first step , head over to thelinewithinus and get started . Your journey begins here . Visit thelinewithinus and I'll see you inside with Den . So Pastor Brian , I'm curious here . You know , when you think about what you see as a pastor at the church there to someone , as well as the other organizations that you help , what are some common themes around challenges that you see , particularly guys with maintaining these healthy friendships ? I mean , I'm sure you probably see some commonalities , some red threads . I'd love to kind of get your insight on that commonalities , some red threads .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 21:09

I'd love to kind of get your insight on that . Yeah , you know , friendship oftentimes I think I say in the book is a full-time job with horrible pay . You just go through seasons , I think one of the things for us as guys .

Prioritizing and Nurturing Meaningful Friendships

Dr. Bryan Loritts 21:24

Let me just back up and say this Universally we have all been created with a deep longing for community and I think it's part of what it means to be made in the image of God , right .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 21:33

So God , the Father , god , the Son , god , the Holy Spirit , they all exist in community . It's what we call the Trinity . They are profoundly relational , and when we get saved , we are invited to the circle of friendship . We are a part of that relationship , and so that's why community is both our deepest longing and our greatest frustration because of something called sin , a three-letter word with I right in the middle of it . And so I think the reason why friendship can be so hard is because we're dealing with I'm a sinful person . I'm dealing with sinful people . You have their sinful issues . You also have their idiosyncrasies , their eccentricities . I have idiosyncrasies and eccentricities , things that we annoy each other on some things , and then I think , honestly , the biggest culprit for us as men is just stinking busyness . We are just incredibly busy people who don't really make room for friendships . Last thing I'll say along these lines that was really helpful to me , that I actually think I want to challenge our listeners to just sit and think about .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 22:46

I had a mentor some years ago . I was complaining about being busy , and this mentor of mine he says look , next time we get together . Bring your calendar . I brought my calendar . He looks it over and he just starts to smile and he says , brian , you're making the classic calendar mistake that the average person makes . I said , well , what is that ? And he says your calendar is task driven and not priority driven . Your calendar is task driven and not priority driven . You know and I think I think most of us , if we're honest that's the default . We fill up our calendars with a bunch of really good , important stuff and then what happens is we don't really make room for the essential things . And if friendship is going to be a regular rhythm of your life , if it's going to be a priority , you have to make room for it in your calendar and you have to fight like the Dickens to protect it . And I just don't . I don't think we think that proactively about it .

Chris Grainger 23:44

I think that one point , pastor Brian , not to build you up , I promise you that was the one thing I took away from just the whole two-day event you guys had back earlier . From then I know the whole point was to not be alone , and I get that . But the point about your calendar being priority versus task-driven I've taught that and used that with some of our guys from the Lions since then . I give you all the credit every time . But I'd love for you to unpack a little bit more . So when you look at a calendar , how can you tell now ? How do you counsel guys to show okay , this is where we need to start aligning your priorities better . Does it look like Bible study devotions ? How do you actually manifest that into a calendar to help a guy who's struggling right here ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 24:27

manifest that into a calendar to help a guy who's struggling right here ? That's a good question . You know , I think one of the things that happens organically as you just kind of enjoy someone else's company , however that happens and there's a million different ways you can meet somebody at church or maybe at your kid's athletic stuff or whatever , and you end up doing dinner or whatever . And as it starts to build , I always encourage people to have what I call the DTR talk .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 24:53

At some point , the define the relationship talk , and it's just kind of one of those things in which you just kind of affirm what you see in the other person , how much you've enjoyed their company , and just saying , hey , I'd like to be more proactive about this and I want to do it in such a way that , yeah , it could be . You know , I want to , I want to sharpen one another . You know , maybe we can engage in some kind of Bible study , but I don't want to , I don't want to make it just that spiritual component . I think so much friendship is just having a good time and eating good food and enjoying a ball game , whatever that looks like . I think you have to define and just make sure we're on the same page here , which is why I recommend the DTR talk and then just figure out a regular rhythm . I think , a healthy friendship . There are points of structure to it , but there's some organic moments to it as well .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 25:49

As it relates to just I , just you know , can I just call you or whatever , and I understand I won't be able to get you every time , you won't be able to get me right away every time , but , man , within a reasonable amount of time we're calling one another back and you know we're laughing or I'm pouring out my heart in some serious way . We're praying for one another . Know we're laughing , or I'm pouring out my heart in some serious way . We're praying for one another . I think that kind of stuff .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 26:15

What it looks like for me is I'm a part of a small group that started about 30 years ago and we do an annual retreat all these years later and that thing is scheduled , it's locked in . We're getting together this October , we're looking to go to New York City and we got some fun stuff . We also have some serious stuff where we sit down and challenge each other in very specific ways , but we lock that in on the calendar well in advance , on business or whatever . I'll call them in advance hey , I'm going to be in your city and we try to make room for one another that particular way . I know other guys , you know it's a weekly kind of breakfast that they do together and then there's some other stuff structured around that and some organic moments where they can just pop up . But I think a little bit of structure and a little bit of organic stuff somewhere in between is the sweet spot .

Chris Grainger 27:07

Amen to that . What about the ? You mentioned seasonality earlier . And we recognize that we change as we grow in the cycles of Christ and we're growing in our journey . And then things change too right , we have different interests as we grow and as we develop and sometimes they're not on the same parallel path . So does that seasonality affect it to where sometimes that season of friendship maybe has served its time and you need to move on ? And how do you recognize that ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 27:37

Oh for sure , In my experience , most friendships are seasonal . It's sort of like you're running a marathon and every few miles there's like a water station there , right , and that's how I look at friends . In the marathon of life , god will just send some friends your way to give you a cup of cold water that will refresh you . Where I just try to hold on to them and then they make a move , like geographically they move somewhere else , or geographically I move somewhere else , or you know , you just kind of drift away . It doesn't mean that they did something wrong , it doesn't mean I did something wrong .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 28:26

It's Ecclesiastes 3 , right , where Solomon says to everything there's a season , there's just a season . And that's why I think your core is going to always kind of be this real small number of people , because not too many people are going to be with you in all of the seasons of life , right , right , but I think it's valuable to have some . So give yourself some grace . Give them some grace , because the natural course of things is very much seasonal , and appreciate it for what it is .

Chris Grainger 28:54

Yeah , what about the counsel for the guy who you know , who takes that step of wanting to maybe DTR right , and then there's some rejection , because not every time that you put that out is it going to be received on you know the ears that you would hope for . Because sometimes the rejection may be . You know , right now it's not the right time .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 29:14

How do you encourage that guy to not stop , yeah . So that's why I think the timing of the DTR is really important . I never encourage , you know , I know guys who put it in a different context , who will go out with a girl for the first time and will just say let me put my cards on the table . I'm not in this just for recreation . I'm trying to see if there's marriage here .

Chris Grainger 29:35

I never recommend that for the first date , or even the first few dates .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 29:38

And I would say the same thing is true in friendship , right ? That's why I'm just like just create a space and just see space and just see . I think the average church person has a love-hate relationship with small groups , because I think the average church person maybe comes into a small group thinking that these are kind of the people who are going to be my friends , and then what you pick up on very quickly is you can't program your friendships Either you connect or you don't right .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 30:09

There's this innate thing here that it's just organic and I think you should just experience one another several times , many times , before you even go there . And I think , if you allow that to happen , and then what you voice , as far as you know , what are we doing here ? As long as you're not putting a whole lot of expectations on that person , I think the typical response would be like yeah , I'm sensing that too and you know , let's try to figure this out . In the event where the person goes yeah , I'm not really feeling that . Listen , I would acknowledge your feelings and you know that's got a sting . It would sting me and in that sense , you know , give yourself time to recover from it . Don't demonize the other person for being honest , you know , and just try to keep it moving .

Chris Grainger 31:02

Amen , and I think you said it well throughout your book , talking about grace and forgiveness and any healthy friendship . It's going to have a healthy dose of both of those for it to continue to grow and cultivate .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 31:16

Absolutely , absolutely .

The Power of Friendship in Chesed

Chris Grainger 31:18

Now you had a whole chapter which I thought was really awesome on the word chesed and I just thought that was super neat . I mean , I was even studying Psalm 33 this morning and my study Bible . It had a note about Hosea and it took me over to Hosea and I got to dig a little bit more on it and I was preparing , kind of going through my notes , getting ready for this I'm like , oh , that's right , he had a whole chapter . So I reread that chapter too and just would love for you to unpack that idea when it comes to friendship , because that's just something that's fresh on my mind and I think a lot of times it just flies by a lot of guys , in particular when it comes to this topic .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 31:54

Yeah , I think chesed for sure is the most important word in the Old Testament . It's a Hebrew word . I think a case could be made . It's the most important word in all the Bible . I think it's used 251 times in the Old Testament . 127 of those times it's used in the book of Psalms . What's crazy is it's really hard to define because it's the character of God played out towards us in covenant . And like how do you define that ? Michael Card , you know , gives what I think is the best definition of chesed when he says chesed is when I have the right to expect nothing , but God gives me everything . And , of course , if you're familiar with the Bible , you know what we're getting at here is a very concept of grace , and grace isn't just something nice to do within the course and journey of a friendship . It is something that you absolutely have to do .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 32:46

Because again in the journey of friendship . I won't mean to , but I'm going to offend you . You're going to offend me . And if , every time someone offends you , you withdraw from that person and throw up a boundary , you're going to be a very lonely person . And what grace does ? What chesed does is when you offend me , when you wrong me , it leaves the door open for a friendship and a relationship . And so in the book of Philemon , look , they both have to extend grace to each other , because I think they both wronged each other . Onesimus stole from Philemon , but Philemon enslaved Onesimus . So I think grace is a two-way street here . But I think one of the things I tried to point out is I think there's some incomplete teaching on grace .

Chris Grainger 33:34

Okay .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 33:35

Oftentimes we only hear grace from the viewpoint of what we give to the other person . Right , and unless we have complete teaching on grace grace , we will set ourself up for abuse . There is the giving of grace , but there is also the receiving of grace , and the only way you know a person has received grace is that it is changing them . So , for example , if Onesimus , who stole from Philemon , goes back to Philemon , philemon reads the letter and Philemon goes okay , I'm going to give you grace . He gives Onesimus grace and the next day he realizes Onesimus has stolen from him . Gives him grace again the next day he's stolen from him . Gives him grace again the next day . You get where I'm going .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 34:27

The problem is not with whether or not Philemon gave grace . The problem is that Onesimus isn't really receiving grace , because if you receive it , it changes you . Now let me modernize the example . If you've ever read or seen Les Mis right , this incredible classic where Jean Valjean , this hardened criminal fresh out of jail , ends up at the bishop's house , long story short , steals the bishop's silverware . French police catch him , march him back to the bishop's house . All the bishop has to do is say , yeah , he stole my stuff , and off to jail he goes . But the bishop shows him grace .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 35:06

And then what does this grace do ? It utterly changes Valjean's life . But the bishop shows him grace . And then what does this grace do ? It utterly changes Valjean's life . He's no longer the hardened criminal , he's one of the most compassionate , merciful people , even to Javert , who is bent on just killing him . And so , again , the idea here is I want to steward grace well , I want to leave the door open for friendship and relationship . But if a person is not being changed by the grace that I'm extending , it's not my fault . It's their fault , because they're not receiving what I'm giving .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 35:43

Grace changes us yes . So that's even Paul in Romans . I think it's Romans 6 . Shall we continue in sin , that grace may abound ? No , may it never be . I think Paul's whole point there is grace should be changing us , it should be transforming us . That's what grace does .

Chris Grainger 36:00

Amen , amen . Well , guys , I want to take our last break . We'll be right back .

Enduring Friendships

Chris Grainger 36:06

I find it helps me to have a guide at times when I'm reading and studying the Bible . One way that helps me is by using devotionals to guide not only what I read , but insights into the scriptures themselves . So we were blessed to become an author on the YouVersion Bible app and we saw an immediate opportunity to help others with devotionals around the areas that we spend the most time talking about at the Lion Within Us .

Chris Grainger 36:34

So if you enjoy the show , you may enjoy these devos as well . We have some guys that are using them as part of their small groups as well , as they're a great way to get conversations going . So to see the ones that we've created , head over to the lionwithinus slash you version , and that's Y-O-U-V-E-R-S-I-O-N to learn more . So that's the lionwithinus slash you version . To get started with your own men's devotional today . I'm curious , pastor Brian , you mentioned a lot about grace right there . When is that manifested directly in your relationships , any stories that you would mind sharing , or an opportunity that maybe some guy can learn from just by hearing how , either that's , you've extended that to one of your close friends , or they've extended it to you ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 37:27

Oh gosh , I mean listen , I don't even need to get outside of my marriage . You know , there's no way my wife and I would be married today and I think this is the average couple's testimony if we have not regularly extended and received grace from the other .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 37:48

You know we are all incredibly broken people . You know it's what I've really been touched by in recent years . So our boys now are 23 , 21 , 19 . They're out the house and at this stage of parenting for me , boy , do I have a lot of regrets , a lot of regrets , really , just , yeah , I think any parent has a laundry list of things they go . If I could go back and change , I would change that , that , that , that , that , that , that . And yet what I'm feeling is a lot of regret and yet just profound grace for my kids . And it's not explicit , so they're not explicitly saying I'm giving you grace , but the fact that they are still pursuing me , the fact that they still want a relationship with me , me , the fact that they still want a relationship with me , in spite of being impacted inevitably by my brokenness , is a profound act of grace .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 38:57

You know , I just , you know , every time I've been forgiven , that's an act of grace . You know , yeah , I just I don't know how to get out of a single day in any of my meaningful relationships without being reminded of grace , without receiving grace .

Chris Grainger 39:17

So amen , Amen , and the whole point that you said about grace changing us such a big deal . You're right .

Chris Grainger 39:23

It has to change us . It should want us and then I think as men we need to be willing to receive it and not reject it . You know , sometimes it's just like receiving a gift , guys , we don't want to receive anything from anyone , but we need to recognize when grace is being extended and just receive it , because then you're giving that person the opportunity to bless you . So that helps somebody out there . Yep , yep , it's good , amen . So I mean the enduring part , obviously , big part of the book , tips for enduring those friendships . When it comes any final items that you would encourage guys when they're thinking through their relationships , when that whole idea of endurance I think that resonates with a lot of guys , how would you point or counsel them here ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 40:05

Yeah , you know , I think one of the things I tried to lay out in the book in fact I think it is the thing I tried to lay out in the book is friendships just require three things on repeat to endure Truth , repentance and grace .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 40:19

And of course , you mix into that cocktail a ton of fun , a ton of good times . You know , whatever your thing is rounds of golf , or , you know , going to sporting events or good concerts , whatever it may be you know , there just has to be that . But when we inevitably hit the wall with one another , the ability to speak truth so that's what Paul says hey , philemon , take him back , onesimus , go back , that's truth . What Paul says , hey , philemon , take him back , onesimus , go back , that's truth . And that's a risky thing . When I put myself out there and I say , hey , I think we need to have a conversation here . And this is what gets a lot of men , because something happens to us and this machismo side of us kicks in . It's no big deal , but at the same time we kind of pull away from one another .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 41:06

And I think what truth requires is for me to be true , not just with the other person , but for me to be truthful for my own self . Now , that kind of hurt me . I don't , I don't really understand . So can we sit down and talk about it ? The other is repentance . It's how I handle the truth . So when a friend , just you know , share some truth with me , I think my response is to be not just one who confesses , that is , to have a change of words , but I also have a change of action , which is what repentance is . I make a U-turn and I go the other way . You know what you call a relationship with a person who refuses to repent . We call that abuse , and repentance is necessary . And then , thirdly , you got to have grace , and I think those three things we talked a lot about , grace is what makes friendships endure , amen .

Chris Grainger 42:01

Amen , this has been absolutely phenomenal .

Friendship and Fun With Pastor Brian

Chris Grainger 42:03

Before we let you go , we'd love to have a quick lightning round at the end of every one of our episodes . Pastor Brian , if you're willing to have a little fun here , we'll talk about fun and friendships . We'd love to do that with you .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 42:13

Yes , absolutely .

Chris Grainger 42:15

All right , well , just share with us a hobby , something that you enjoy doing for fun .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 42:21

I love to read , absolutely love to read , and I love to play golf . I'm not good at it , but I love to play golf .

Chris Grainger 42:28

All right , all right , so you're a big golfer . That's a good time .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 42:34

So what about your favorite food ? Ooh , favorite food , wow , I enjoy . I enjoyed some good pasta . I enjoy some good Chinese food , like really good Chinese food , yeah .

Chris Grainger 42:52

Okay , there you go . There you go . What about when we think about movies ? All-time favorite movie . What do you enjoy pulling up ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 43:00

Oh , you would have to say that If you do it by the movie I've seen the most , okay , I can't believe . I want to admit this the Titanic .

Chris Grainger 43:11

Really .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 43:12

Yes , it was . Look , it's a great historical movie . I hear you .

Chris Grainger 43:18

You've got to tell yourself .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 43:20

Yes , yes , Look man . I saw it eight times in the movie theater . It was my wife and I's second date . I've been to the theater about eight times in the movie theater . It was my wife and I's second day . When it came out on videocassette at Tower Records , I stood in line at midnight to get it . And I'm going to stop there . I've already embarrassed myself , so let's go to the next question .

Chris Grainger 43:43

All right , how about if you could have a superpower , Pastor Brian ? What would that superpower be and how would you use it ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 43:49

Oh , reading my wife's mind , oh man , for sure the ability to read her mind .

Chris Grainger 43:57

Yes , that would be my superpower . That's probably the best answer to that question we've ever got right there , lots of guys are getting some amens on that one . Oh man , that's it . What about a habit ? We're big on habits and tips . Any new habits that you started recently or something that you enjoy , you find value in . This could be a health thing or spiritual thing . We just always just keep it general .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 44:20

Yeah , I'm severely limiting my sugar intake . I'm a big , big believer in annual physical and uh , my numbers are creeping up and uh , it's just time I I very much so limit sugar . Um .

Chris Grainger 44:38

I use the word limit um because I got carnivore on us or anything like that . Are you well ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 44:46

yeah , whatever you want to call it heavy protein , low carbs , low processed food but you know so I say a typical day , I'm not doing sugar , not doing processed food , but I got to have these sanity moments right where I allow myself I don't know once every two or three weeks , you know to have some ice cream to whatever . So I'm trying to get a better handle on my health , is what I'm saying .

Chris Grainger 45:12

Good for you . Good for you , absolutely so . When you think about the last year , pastor Brian , what did you spend too much time doing ? This is always a fun question to ask , because typically guys like you are knocking it out .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 45:23

What did I spend too much time doing ? Well , this answer is going to probably bum you out a little bit , so I'm going to tell you the answer and then I'll tell you why I spent an unprecedented amount of time by myself .

Chris Grainger 45:40

Okay .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 45:41

And the reason for that is my wife's mother has cancer , Her father has cancer and her sister has cancer , and her sister has cancer . Her parents are divorced . Her mom is in Arizona , so she's been out in Arizona for long stretches of a time . In fact , as of this recording , she's been there for five weeks and I'm going to fly out pretty soon to see her . So it's , you know , look , look .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 46:09

I'm grateful to be in a position to where we can provide assistance , you know we take that commandment to honor your mother and father very seriously and we do it with joy . But there's definitely a cost and sacrifice that comes with that and we're just trying to navigate that well .

Chris Grainger 46:26

Amen . And I remember even you said at the conference I think she had been out for a month or two and you were picking her up from the airport that night . So I mean that's you know . I know that's a tough season , but I'll be praying for you during that time .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 46:39

Thank you .

Chris Grainger 46:40

Yes , sir . A couple real quick ones here at the end . When you think about God and just so many things that come to mind , what's your favorite thing about him ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 46:49

For sure his grace . You know , the thing that moves me most when I'm in moments of deep meditation and prayer is , you know , the profound sinfulness of my own life and his overwhelming grace . You know the fact that he still chooses to use me , to be in relationship with me , and I'm not just saying that , just to say that it moves me on a very deep , visceral level . So that is the thing I think that I think the most of when it comes to God .

Chris Grainger 47:22

Amen , let's flip it 180 . The least favorite thing about the evil one .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 47:28

Oh gosh , Um um , so divisive , so divisive . You know , um , every time my wife and I make up our in our minds to pray or to draw closer to one another , something always happens . We used to do this marriage conference , Family Life Weekend , to Remember , and it just got so silly and predictable . I mean , we just knew it was coming . Every single time we'd hop on a plane to fly somewhere to encourage a couple hundred couples , we'd get into the biggest fight , the biggest argument , and at some point you go . This is not coincidence , it's just the enemy .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 48:12

He's just so stinking divisive .

Chris Grainger 48:14

Amen , amen . Last question for you , pastor Brian , is what do you hope the listeners remember the most from our conversation today ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 48:23

Friendship is hard , but it is worth it . It is absolutely positively worth it , in fact . Name me one thing in life that brings you deep satisfaction that doesn't come with a little bit of work , and so I just want to encourage people to keep getting after it .

Chris Grainger 48:42

Amen . Where do you want them to connect with you to get a copy of their book and all the wonderful things that you're , that you're doing ?

Dr. Bryan Loritts 48:50

Uh , you can go to my website , brianleritzcom . You can also go to , um , uh , amazoncom , uh , and just track with kind of all all my books and resources there . Uh , you can order all this stuff there . Um , I am also on Instagram threads . I'm on Instagram . I'm on Facebook , not on Twitter . That place is just getting too wild for me , yeah yeah , so I just hopped off of Twitter , but those other platforms you can find me on .

Chris Grainger 49:16

Sounds good and we'll . We'll link to all that stuff up in the show notes for you guys out there . So any any parting words you have for our listeners , pastor Brian .

Dr. Bryan Loritts 49:24

No , I don't .

Chris Grainger 49:29

Well , I don't . Well , I've certainly enjoyed the time with you , sir .

Chris Grainger 49:31

Thank you so much for taking the time with us today . Thank you All right guys , I told you that was going to be a good one . So Pastor Brian did not disappoint . I've been this this the date recording this one has been on my calendar for quite a while , working with his assistant to get this set up and just to say just to get here . I was pretty excited , pretty giddy , and for good reason , because I knew he would be incredible . So hopefully you guys enjoyed that one .

Chris Grainger 49:53

Something to think about this week as you leave this conversation is why is friendship so hard ? And friendship's hard I mean , pastor Brian and I talked about that at length it takes work , it's not just going to fall in your lap . So get after it because it is totally worth it . It's worth the sweat equity that you're going to put in to have those enduring friendships . So if you enjoy this one , highly encourage you to go check out the Summit Church . You can even go to the Summit Church app . This is a church that I don't personally go to , but I listen to them . They're pretty far away from where I live in North Carolina but every Sunday typically and they actually come out on Monday You'll get their sermons . That come out . Usually it's Pastor JD Greer or Pastor Brian . They have other pastors as well , but when you ever catch a sermon from Pastor Brian , you will not be disappointed . I promise you that . Okay , so hopefully you guys enjoyed this stuff . Give us a rating and review . That would help big time .

Chris Grainger 50:48

And then head over to thelionwithinus , because if you're struggling with friendship , if you're struggling with connection and those meaningful relationships in your life , I get it . It can be hard , so let us help you at least . Get started with having some conversations with some fellow Christian brothers . Join one of our mastermind groups . It's part of our community . We want to offer that up to you so that you can get connected , plugged in , and maybe this is an area you just need some counseling with . You need some guidance , you need some wisdom . You need some brothers in Christ coming alongside you to help you here . This is what the community is all about . We have lots of things there to help you grow . So , talking about the forgiveness , talking about the grace , talk about the iron , sharpening iron it's all within the community . So that's at the lion withinus .

Chris Grainger 51:32

Head over to the Bible app . If you're a Bible app user from you version , check out our devotionals . We have tons of devotionals out there on the Bible app Love to get your insight , your wisdom of what you , what you think about these , how they serve you and , again , just connect with us . We have live events coming up here later this year . We have our mission trip , we have our Iron in Autumn event , we have our next year Reclaiming the Wild men's event . So , guys , we have lots of things happening .

Christian Support for Life Struggles

Chris Grainger 52:00

You need to know about all that stuff directly at thelionwithinus , and we've even put some information together for you guys struggling with different areas of your life Maybe it's finances , maybe it's pornography , maybe it's your marriage . We've organized content in such a way that you can go to these certain areas and you can dig deep on the topics , on the types of issues that you're having , that you want good Christian biblical support from . So check us out . That'd be great . If you want to be a donor , want to be a supporter , all that can be found at thelionwithinus . So , guys , thank you so much . Come back on Friday Prayer for a good little woman . We'll have a fun Friday episode ready for you to just enjoy , with some tips . A couple of dad jokes . You know how we'd like to roll fellas .